Faith Through Tragedy: Finding Hope in Christ When Life Shatters - Ashley Glader Interview

In this special interview episode of Reasoning Through the Bible, Ashley Glader shares a deeply moving Christian testimony of suffering, grief, and hope in Jesus Christ. Her story includes the murder of her brother at Columbine, the death of her son after severe medical complications, and the later loss of another brother to cancer. Through each tragedy, she wrestled with pain, asked hard questions, and learned what it means to keep holding on to God even when life no longer makes sense. 

This episode speaks directly to listeners who are walking through grief, wrestling with why God allows suffering, or wondering whether faith can survive repeated heartbreak. The conversation explores the book of Job, the problem of evil, the hiddenness of God, and the difference between shallow religious answers and real biblical hope. It also offers practical wisdom for how to help suffering people without making their pain worse. 

Ashley shares how tragedy can either drive people away from God or draw them closer to Him, why heaven and eternity matter more after deep loss, and how believers can still say that God is good even when they do not understand what He is doing. This is an honest, compassionate, and hope-filled discussion for anyone who has ever asked, “Why?” and still wants to trust Christ. 

Topics in this episode include:

•  Christian testimony through suffering 
•  Columbine and family loss 
•  grief after losing a child 
•  why God allows suffering 
•  when God feels distant 
•  how to comfort the grieving 
•  wrestling with prayer in tragedy 
•  heaven, eternity, and hope 
•  keep going through the pain 

Reasoning Through the Bible is a verse-by-verse Bible teaching ministry committed to careful exposition, biblical context, and faithful application.

You can find out more about Ashley at ashleyglader.com 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Job Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Hello and welcome to ReadSteck Through the Bible. Today on our program, we're going to do something very different than what we normally do. If you're new to RTTB, where we normally do verse by verse, book by book, Bible studies through the Word of God. And we are in the midst of the book of Job, which of course has a great deal of suffering and pain. And as part of that, we today are going to have a very special guest. We have a guest that has gone through quite a bit of suffering. We're going to be able to take many of the things in the Word of God and turn it into practical everyday shoe-leather stories and put a human face on it. And so I'd like to go ahead and introduce our guest for today. Welcome, Ashley Gladder. Welcome, Ashley.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

And Ashley, you've got quite a story to tell, but before we get into that, I want to introduce your ministry. Tell us about the name of your ministry and how people could reach you if they have additional questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yeah, so right now I have a website, just AshleyGladder.com, and I have a blog, and I'm working on a book right now. But basically, my heart is for people who have been through the fire. They've been through a lot of suffering and trials, and maybe they feel a bit discouraged. And I just want to offer people hope that we find in the Lord and encourage them to just keep going.

A Happy Childhood Before Tragedy

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So with that, again, in the book of Job, Job, of course, loses his entire family, his children are killed, and he loses his all of his finances, loses his business, and even loses his health. And the message from Job is that God is in control, uh, but there's a lot of things that go on that we just don't understand, even though there's a great deal of pain in life. So I want to go ahead and tell your story. You've gone through quite a bit of pain, uh, even multiple times. There's multiple great tragedies that have happened in your life. So let's let's just start out. What was what was life like when you were a child and what was your family? And tell us about your your family's faith uh when you were a child. What was life like?

Columbine And Losing Her Brother

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Yeah, I feel like I won the lottery when it comes to the family that I grew up in. My parents were, you know, a strong couple and strong in the Lord, and I accepted Christ when I was only five years old. So all of the VBS, Sunday school, you know, middle school retreats to the mountains, we did all of it. And we grew up in Wisconsin. Um, we moved out to Colorado when I was about seven. So we, I'm saying my parents and I had two older brothers. And life in Wisconsin was just pretty carefree. And we all I can say is my childhood felt ideal. It was just we were surrounded by cousins and aunts and uncles, grandparents, and it was just a really good time, and you know, just a carefree childhood. And when we moved out to Colorado, that was kind of our first big uh I don't know if you call it a trial, but it was just a big change. And you know, we missed everybody back home. We didn't have any family out in Colorado, so getting adjusted to life in Colorado was um, you know, it was kind of hard at first, especially for my oldest brother. He was 12 when we moved out, and then my middle brother was around 10, and then I was seven. So yeah, my story starts about four years after we moved to Colorado. Uh I was in fifth grade, and oldest brother was a sophomore. Middle brother was eighth grade, I believe, and went to school one day. And you know, that was the last time I saw my brother. My brother was murdered at Columbine High School when he was 16. And so that's kind of the beginning of the trials.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

There's probably some of our guests that the word Columbine means a great deal, and others of our listeners that may not be aware of exactly what happened. So help us out a little bit. The story of the tragedy at Columbine High School. What what happened?

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, it's so weird to me that it's been 27 years. And, you know, I I realized that there's a lot of people that really weren't alive when Columbine happened anymore. And um, so yeah, absolutely. Uh on April 20th, my brother went to school. He parked his old beat-up pickup truck in the library parking lot, and around lunchtime, two students came into the library where he was studying, and they shot 13 people and killed 13 people. I'm sorry, they injured many more, and they eventually killed themselves. And Columbine kind of went down in history at that point as the biggest school shooting at that time, and it was kind of rare in the fact that there were two shooters as well. Um, but yeah, it garnered the attention of the nation, and we met the president and um, you know, celebrities. And my only point of saying that is just like it shocked the nation. And we even knew people around the world that had heard the news over in the country that they were from. So it was kind of one of those moments where the world took notice, and you know, they also kind of thought what caused this. Um and yeah, I can go into that, but I do think overall it was a spiritual battle, and there was lots of evil in those two boys, and also a lot of the students that were killed had faith. And it's really evident if you go to the memorial, you can read all of their uh short part of their testimony on the stone, and it's incredible how many of them were believers.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

So you were, if I'm right, 11 years old when this happened, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

So this would be difficult for anyone, but I would think that a child would especially have difficult just processing the tragedy. So help us out a little bit, if you could, with the what was going on inside your mind and your heart when this happened.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, I think for me, it was just a lot of anxiety and shock. Um, my world was flipped on its head.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I mean, you don't really think of something like this happening even as a grown-up, but especially a 11-year-old, you you really don't expect any of this. And your brother just goes off to school like normal and then just never comes back.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Right. It was shocking. I mean, for our entire family. And, you know, it's it's something that changes you forever. And it changed me forever. I mean, it changes how you think about the world, how you think about faith. Um and and at the same time, you know, my family stayed strong in the Lord. But as a kid, I still kind of had these questions like, okay, why does my mom, you know, she went to a prayer group and they would pray for their kids at school. And there was one specifically she went to Columbine and prayed. And I just thought, okay, well, why do we pray if if things like this are still gonna happen, you know? And so in my in my mind, I was starting to just kind of wrestle with some of those questions. But at the same time, I remember going to his funeral and feeling very close to God and singing worship songs. And I felt like I could just keep singing. And so I think it brought me to just this deeper level and a different level than a lot of my peers, which made me feel just kind of you know, different growing up, I think, because of going through that. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

So this is interesting. You what you're saying is that through this great tragedy, you were brought closer to the Lord. The reason I bring that up is because there are many people who just the opposite happened, correct?

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah, definitely. And yeah, I would say with this tragedy, um, I would definitely say it brought me and my parents closer to the Lord. Obviously, you go through, you know, like I said, a little bit of that wrestling. Or I know my mom even said to me she felt kind of like God threw her out into the ocean and said, okay, swim, you know, kind of like you feel a little bit of that betrayal. Um, but ultimately we we found our hope and our comfort in God. And yeah, obviously, like you said, people respond differently, but for us, like we clung to God. That's what got us through.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

And obviously, your family were having just just tremendous emotions, right? So were you able to emotionally and mentally work through those, or or was it was it obviously very difficult, but you know, there's some people that get into situations like that and it damages them emotionally so much that they they never really come come back, if if that's a proper word.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah, you're very right about that. And my middle brother, Pat, he really struggled and he internalized a lot of it. So he wasn't talking about it. Um, he kind of became introverted when really he was an extrovert. He kind of had this gruffness and coldness to him. And so he really struggled, especially as we went through high school. And, you know, I was more the type I wanted to write about it or talk to people about it. Um, so those just those differences in how people process. But I think especially with kids, you know, a lot of the focus can be on the parents, and understandably so. But with children, I think there's there's a hard point where you know you're dealing with a lot of that trauma, but you're also going through just normal, like growing up stuff, you know, as a middle schooler, high schooler. And so it's just a really hard time to experience all of that trauma and shock. And it, yeah, it definitely shapes you. And I think for the better or the worse.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Now that wasn't your only tragedy, right? You that was happened when you're 11 years old, but you you meant you just mentioned high school. So you're you're growing up, you're going to high school. Well, tell tell us the rest of your story.

Faith, Media Spotlight, And Growing Up

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah. And, you know, and another thing I'm sorry I didn't mention was the media attention. So that was also hard to navigate, especially as a kid. You know, you're talking to reporters, and and then you kind of become known as, you know, the girl whose brother died at Columbine. And uh I don't know, it it really tainted my view of the media and yeah, I guess I'll just say that. It tainted my view of the media and made me see the media as not a good thing. And later I would come to develop more of a holistic picture.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

But along those, along those lines, the the you're what you're describing is sort of like a fishbowl, right? You've got all this media attention. But I would imagine not just the media, but you probably had family friends and those around you, an extended family that that were probably focusing a lot on you as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, exactly. And it's kind of one of those things, you know, even going back to church, you walk in the room and everyone's looking at you. You know, they're all they all know what happened. They're all, oh, that's the family that, you know, lost their brother or son at Kalmbang. So yeah, it it is, it's just a very different thing than a lot of other griefs that we go through, just having to do kind of grieve in public, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Um But you did go through that experience with your your faith intact, right? You you mentioned earlier it drew you closer to the Lord, and and and I think that's significant.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I I think it gave me just a depth in my faith that I couldn't have gotten without going through that or, you know, suffering. Um, so yeah, as I went through middle school, high school, I kept my brother John close to my heart and um still really was involved in church. And when I got to college, I really started to explore more about the Bible and like all those questions I had reading through the Bible, I wanted more. You know, I wanted to dig deeper and get into apologetics and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

So were you working through the intellectual questions? Because there's there's a lot of us that have not gone through such tremendous tragedy that it's it's easier for us to look at these questions from sort of an intellectual, theological, philosophical viewpoint. It's very different from somebody that has experienced the emotional pain, right? So when you were 11 as a teenager, you're you're working through it emotionally. Now you're more of an adult and you're probably working through it a little more intellectually too, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah, it's kind of like through each process of growing, you're kind of reprocessing everything and maybe asking new questions. So yeah, I think that's a really good point. I was looking at a lot of the intellectual questions of the Bible and not even necessarily related to suffering, but just those questions you have when you're reading through and you think, okay, I don't really understand why God did that or whatnot. Um, when my brother died, I didn't ask God why. I I thought, I mean, why shouldn't we suffer? You know, why why should my family be exempt from suffering? So that wasn't really a question that I struggled with then. And I will say this too we saw so much good come out of Columbine and my brother's death that it doesn't make it easier, but seeing the pain have purpose through it in that instance was really helpful and it really helped you see, like, okay, God is working through this. You know, I can see God working through this. He's brought so much good out of it. And I think that can kind of help bolster your faith as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

There are what the philosophers and the theologians call the problem of evil or problems of evil. And part of that is uh, why would a good God that's all powerful allow this? And what I just heard you say, somebody that has experienced tragedy, that there's actually some good that could come of it. Now, easier for those of us that haven't gone through this, but here you are saying, I went through it. I went through great tragedy, and yet there was good on the other side. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Absolutely. And I'll get into more of this later because not every not every tragedy or suffering we go through, it's easy to see the good that comes out of it. So I will get into that more later. Um, but I absolutely think you know God uses our pain and suffering for his glory. And I do think there can be good that comes out of any situation. It's just some situations you have to dig a little deeper to see that beauty in it.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And in the book of Job, most of the book is Job wrestling with this exact situation. He he sees no good in it at all. I think that's true for many people in many situations of suffering that they just don't see any good that could come of it. Hence the the problem of evil. Why why is there suffering? And uh so uh I I just find it rewarding that that I could somebody can see some some good that could come through this, that you're saying your your faith was deeper, and here you are doing ministry, helping other people. So there can be good. It's just sometimes we don't we don't always see it, we don't always see God's ways. That's that's kind of the message from uh from Job, correct?

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yeah, absolutely. I love Job. And um, I think some people they think, oh, the book of Job, it's so depressing. But I love Job and I get so much encouragement from it because you know he he basically asked God why, and he's like, I want to talk to God, you know, I'm righteous. What did I do? Why is this happening? Um, and God doesn't answer his questions, and I think that's so relevant to our world, you know, there's so many things that are going on that we we don't understand why it happened. Um but yeah, and I can get into more of my story too and kind of talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

So walk us through the next major event.

Joshua’s Diagnosis And NICU Battle

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah. So um, after college, I got married, and my husband and I uh started a family pretty early on. So I had a little girl, and then a couple years later, I had a little boy, and I named him after my brother. And then not long, like about a year and a half later, I had um, well, I was pregnant with my third, and at the 20-week ultrasound, we found out that he was missing his left arm and that he had possible stomach and heart issues. And again, it was one of those moments where your world just kind of stops. And I knew that I didn't want to abort this baby because you know, doctors nowadays it seems they always uh make that option available. I knew that wasn't what we wanted to do, and I knew I wanted to fight for his life, and I knew that he was already a fighter at that 20-week ultrasound. So we named him Joshua after the warrior in the Bible. And you know, it was a time in that pregnancy of a lot of uncertainty and a lot of doctor's appointments and a lot of no answers. So we never found out any genetic uh testing at all. Uh, we had it done, but nothing came back conclusive. So he was born at 38 weeks pregnant and immediately was taken to the NICU, he was intubated, um, honestly wasn't looking uh very healthy. And to make a long story short, he had many health anomalies. He had surgery on his intestines, he had um he was on oxygen. We found out that his thumb on his only hand wasn't going to be usable, and then we found out that he actually only had one eyeball, so he had the two sockets, but only one had an eyeball in it, and his vision obviously would be very limited, and it felt like we just kept getting these gut punches, and we'd give get over one thing, and then you know, doctors would find something else, and it was just so um, I don't know how you'd even describe it, just emotionally.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

How were you holding up emotionally with this? How how was what was your emotional state at this point? Because this is, I mean, you're telling this story here in a minute or two, but this is happening over a period of time, as you said, one gut punch after another after another, right? So, how uh how were you and your husband holding up?

SPEAKER_02 21:27

I think, you know, after we found out about his arm, my husband was amazing. I mean, he was like, Oh, I wonder what Paralympic sports he's gonna be in. I mean, he was so optimistic. And and I think that's the word of Joshua's life is hope. Like, we had so much hope for him. And with each piece of news, we were devastated. And I had a lot of anxiety and fear. And, you know, I would be researching all of these genetic conditions. What if it's this? What if it's that? Um, you know, we Got back his brain scan and everything looked normal and it was like, oh, uh, you know, his hearing test. We wanted to frame that. It was perfect. But it was very, very hard. And he got to a point in the hospital. So he had had um a surgery. We thought we were going to be able to take him home. And he actually couldn't be extivated because he would basically, I mean, start going into an episode where they had to do CPR. And so he was gravely ill. He got transferred down to the pediatric intensive care unit. And there is where we discovered that his trachea was tiny, um, and he was gonna have to have a very intense surgery. And that entire weekend before the surgery, they were just trying to keep him alive. I mean, he was medically in a medically induced coma. It was incredibly stressful. And you know, obviously, I had my faith, but I will say I think fear and anxiety was overriding everything else in those moments.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Um very understandable that that you'd be kind of at the end of your string at this point.

Taking Joshua Home And Losing Him

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah. And so, you know, it was it was tumultuous. We I remember one night I went to go pump milk for him. I came back, the side the lights were going off, code blue was going on, the speaker. I walked into his room and I found doctors doing CPR, and I looked over at my husband and uh like, what is going on? And he just looked at me, and I it was one of those moments I like felt so helpless. Like, I I I'm willing him to live with every fiber of my being, but I can't do anything to make that happen. Like, it's out of my hands, and it's a horrible feeling as a parent. And he made it through that, and he made it through the surgery, and he was, you know, kind of on the up and up after so long. We were in the hospital for two and a half months when doctors finally said, Yeah, we think you can take him home. You know, he's only on a little bit of oxygen. And um, before we take took him home, I remember watching the movie The Shack, and I know there's like theological things about it. Um, but in that movie, he really wrestles with God and you know, why his daughter was murdered and all of that. And I didn't know at the time that that's what I was gonna be ending up doing is having that same wrestling match with God because we took Joshua home. And I will say, right before we took him home, um he had an episode where his oxygen started plummeting, and doctors were saying, like, oh, we think it's just because of this heart thing or whatever, you know, it it's it shouldn't be a big deal. Um, but they did say, well, you can keep him in the hospital if you want, but like, we think you can take him home. And it like to have that on your shoulders as a parent, I just felt like, why don't you tell me what I'm supposed to do? And I felt so stressed out. And I went for a walk and I felt like at that time I surrendered Joshua's life up to God because I thought, you know, if he dies or if he lives, like I am not in control of that. And I think, especially as parents, we can kind of, you know, you want to protect your kids, and you you you try to do everything you can to protect them, but ultimately, like, their life is in God's hands. And so I I surrendered him there, you know, and I thought, this is not on my shoulders anymore. Like this, this, he is God's. And we took him home, and uh, he spent a day and a half with us, and you know, he spent time with his siblings, we gave him a bath, and I put him to bed one night, and just a day and a half later, he I I woke up and he wasn't breathing in the middle of the night, and you know, Ben and Sue's CPR and all of that, and he was proclaimed deceased. And I think that began my wrestling match because I didn't see the purpose, I didn't see, you know, hundreds of people coming to Christ, and all I could see was we just spent months and months on our knees before God crying out to him and he died, you know, and we went through all of this in the hospital. I kept telling myself, God wouldn't let him get through all of this just for him to die, and he did. And so that was really, really hard to reconcile, you know, God's sovereign will in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

You used the term wrestling with God. Uh tell me about that. What what were you what was your emotional spiritual state with the Lord at that point?

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah, I, you know, honestly, for a while I just didn't want to pray. Um, I I did feel a bit betrayed. Like I had all this hope, and you know, I know you're my only hope, God, but like why would you do this? What was the point? Like, why would you let my baby suffer and then just die? You know, it there was a part of me that felt like it was cruel. And I think a lot of people could relate to that with certain things in their life. Um, so yeah, I wrestled a lot with prayer. Like, what's the point? Why did I pray for him? Why are other people praying for him? Um, and I wrestled with like, does God really care about us? You know, I know he loves us as like a whole, as humanity, you know. But does he care about me personally or my family? Um, yeah, I think those are the some of the things I struggle with the most.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Some of those same thoughts we see when we read Job. He he at one point says, I feel like I'm a target, and God's just set me up there just so he can shoot arrows at me. And at one point he talks about it, it feels like I've been broken open and all my intestines and my inward parts are just spilling out on the ground. He felt like God was just uh some sort of a cruel ogre in the sky that that was just doing things over and over. He talks about wave after wave of pain that comes on him, and that whatever he does, if if I confess, then I get pain, and if I stay silent, then I get pain. And he felt like God was being cruel to him at this point. And I would imagine that you're at this point in your life screaming out why. Um why is this happening? And again, a lot of times that that's the the human condition, right? Is is Lord why? And the answer is he doesn't always tell us why, does he?

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Yeah, exactly. I think that was a big thing for me, is I saw in my brother's death so much good that came out of it. And you could see God just working. And in this situation, it felt more like, where were you, God? Are you there? Did you hear my prayers? You know? Um, and so yeah, I really can relate to Job with that. And yet, I was reading through Job just recently, and his immediate reaction to everything happening was praising God, which is incredible to me. But then he goes on, like you said, to have these very real feelings, and and two, I I don't know, I think as Christians we feel uncomfortable with that when when people have those feelings towards God, but I think it's very normal, and there's lots of people in the Bible who openly lament and you know say those things.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Well, with your story, you're at this point wrestling with God in your words, but the tragedies weren't over, were they?

Learning To Surrender And Face More Loss

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yeah. So yeah, I did a lot of you know, trying to process everything. Um, I did a lot of walks and processed a lot through those walks. And so two years later, my 35-year-old brother was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. And my first thought was kind of like, really God? Um, but you know, it was different. I wasn't mad at God, and I can't say I really asked why all that much. And it's because after Joshua died, I did a lot of that processing and wrestling, and I came to a conclusion that sometimes we have to surrender to not knowing, and sometimes we are not gonna see, you know, the purpose in our pain. I think we can get beauty from anything and see, you know, see some of that on earth, but I think, you know, sometimes we're not gonna see a lot of the purpose in our pain until maybe heaven. And I I clung on to that hope that when I see Jesus face to face, it's all gonna make sense. And you know, everything is gonna be made right. And that was that is what I was clinging to. So when my brother was diagnosed, I had a little bit of a different outlook. I still didn't understand, but this time I wasn't really trying to understand. Um, and you know, my brother fought so hard for five and a half years, and he eventually did pass away from his cancer. I saw, though, my brother come closer to God through his entire journey, and that was incredible to see. And and my brother didn't ask God why, which was amazing to me. You know, he was so young, and it really just drew him closer to God.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

The human condition is to scream out why. You you've you've mentioned that word several times now, is why. And when we it's one thing to approach these problems intellectually, and we can sit in an academic setting in an ivory tower university classroom and come up with a with a technical answer, but it's really different, right? When it's the emotional and spiritual pain involved. Were you screaming out why and struggling with why that God would do these things?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Yeah, I mean, I like I said, I think especially with my son, um, because I didn't see God working in it. And and I will say, as time went on, I dug for the beauty in those moments in those hospital rooms. It was such a traumatic experience. And so trying to dig through and see the beauty and the good in it was difficult. But I did. And I could see then, like as time passed, how God provided for our family through the caring actions of others around us, bringing us meals and the support that we had from other people, how Joshua's life even impacted the staff at the hospital. I mean, Joshua didn't get to meet very many people, but we had the hospital staff rooting for him. I had one of his surgeons say that his whole church had been praying for Joshua. And, you know, I think just because we can't see the impact doesn't mean it wasn't there. And I know it's kind of cliche that people say, you know, God's still working even when you can't see it. But it really is true that there's so many things that we'll never know, or maybe we'll only know in heaven. Um, but back to your question of, yeah, why? I think it's normal to ask why. Um, and I think in my mind, it was also easier to understand why with my brother being murdered, because God gives us free will, and some people are gonna use that free will to hurt other people, and so there's wickedness and evil, and I saw it as you know, that's what killed my brother, but with you know, birth defects, disease, those are effects of our fallen world, and there's not really anyone to blame. So I think a lot of times we can go to God and say, you know, why are you letting this happen when we can't see the reason?

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Did you have people around you, family and friends that came to you and were trying to be helpful, but in the end were maybe saying things that weren't very helpful? Did that ever happen? Or maybe there's examples of people that that were helpful and and what they did?

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I mean, there's always the people that say dumb things. Um, like, you know, I had a kid tell me that their dog died, and so they understood how I felt when my brother was murdered. Um, people are, you know, generally trying to be helpful and they're trying to relate to you. And I think, you know, as an adult, I can reframe that a little bit more, but still sometimes people say really insensitive things. And so I think the less you say the better, kind of like Job's friends in the beginning, how they didn't say anything at first and they were doing really well. And then they opened their mouths. Um but yeah, I think also the people who try to make it okay right away. Um, that can be really hard. So I had a an acquaintance say, Well, God, you know, does everything for a reason, so so why do you think this happens like to my son? And I kind of just stood there with my mouth hanging open and I always said, I don't know, can you tell me? Um, grieving people are very, you know, vulnerable. They are raw. And so, to be honest, I feel bad sometimes for the people who are trying to come alongside of us because it can be difficult. It can be difficult to find the right words. So I would say, you know, don't even feel like you have to say the right thing, but just being there for someone, just saying, Hey, can I drop off a meal this week? When when's the best day? So not asking if they want a meal, but just when would you like it? Um, kind of just trying to take stuff like that off their plate. We got so many gift cards. Even when Joshua was alive in the hospital, um, we had people, you know, give us gas gift cards and um just fast food gift cards so we didn't have to think about anything else. So just that generosity and kindness. And I even had people offer to sit with me in his hospital room and just keep me company. Um, so it doesn't always have to be money related either. And I wish I could have helped with my brother's family more, but they actually lived in Wisconsin. Um but yeah, I think sometimes, even like in that situation where my brother was in another state, we had some family help out my parents to, you know, help fly them out there and um contribute to like a hotel room while they were staying out there and things like that. Just trying to take things off people's plates as much as possible when they're going through those hard times.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

You mentioned your acquaintance there that had come up and said, well, God has a purpose for everything, and asking you what the purpose was when obviously there's no way of knowing any of those kind of things.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

I think of in Job, his friends would come in and say very similar things that God has a purpose for this, and they would very cruelly turn to Job and say, Well, it must be your fault. Something you did, Job, that that caused us. So you might as well fetch off a head and repent to God. And of course, the book tells us that there was nothing in Job that caused it. So I would hope that people were not cruel enough to say such things to you. But I also think knowing a little bit about human nature, sometimes there's a very cruel voice in our head that sort of blames ourselves uh with the same false blaming, right? Did you ever get thought that you were second-guessing yourself that maybe there was something I did that caused it, and trying to come up with a well, maybe there's some unknown thing that I did that might have caused this tragedy, and maybe I'm to blame? Was there a cruel voice in your head trying to blame yourself for these things?

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Absolutely. Um, especially with my son, because you know, I I thought, is there something I did when I was pregnant? Was it, you know, those antibiotics I took that one time, or was it um, you know, whatever? They tell you all these things, you know, you're not supposed to do when you're pregnant. And we actually went to Disneyland. I was pregnant with Joshua, and it was after we had found out everything. And I remember reading one of the signs to one of the like the kitty roller coasters, and it said, like, don't ride when you're pregnant. And I just stood there thinking, I have done everything that I thought I should have. Like, I took the prenatal vitamins, I I heated up my deli meat, I try not to take Tylenol, you know, like all the things they tell me that I'm supposed to do, and my baby still has these birth defects. It was kind of one of those, again, like helpless moments of I thought I did everything right, and it still didn't turn out the way that I thought it would. Um Yeah, so there was a lot of a lot of research on my end of like just trying to figure out what what maybe I possibly did, or what kind of condition is this, and um I really, yeah, there was guilt there, even though I didn't do anything wrong. I think, like you said, it's human nature to to really find someone to blame or find a reason, you know, why is this happening? And it's really hard for our human nature to not have a reason for that. So yeah, there was uh a point I had to kind of let that go. Um, actually, my aunt sent me a verse. Um, I can't give the exact reference. It's in John, I believe. Maybe first John. Um, you can look it up, but um, it's where the blind man is healed by Jesus. And um he kind of said, like, why, why am I like this? Did uh, you know, because they would blame the parent's sin or the man's sin. And God said, He, you know, he didn't sin, it's not his parents' sin. It's so God's glory could be made known in him. And when she sent me that verse, I just thought, okay, like maybe this isn't anything I did. Maybe somehow God's gonna be glorified through this.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

At the depths of your pain, were there times that God seemed distant and you were just questioning God and He He just seemed to be silent, that that heaven just seemed to be so far away, and God didn't seem to be close or comforting at all? Were were there times where you were just questioning God, where are you? And he he just didn't seem to answer.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah, I remember praying desperately, God, uh you don't have to change the situation. Just take away my anxiety. Please, just give me peace right now. And I didn't get it. And you know, maybe that was my fault. I don't know. But there were definitely those moments where I thought, God, just give me this peace. Like that's all I'm asking for. And so I didn't always feel him. And and sometimes I had to really dig, like I said, to to look back and see where he was in those moments because it did feel lonely. And my father-in-law said something once, he's like, I think our prayers are hitting the ceiling and coming back down. And I thought that was such a good illustration for how it felt. Like, you know, is God, are you up there? Are you hearing are you hearing this? Um so even though I questioned that a lot and didn't understand, I still just felt like there is hope in no one else. I mean, no one else in the world can give us hope. Nothing in the world offers us hope. It's all temporary, it can change in the snap of your fingers. And so I clung to that even when I didn't feel God's presence.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

So I'm gonna role play here for just a second. I'm I'm pretend I'm I'm the person out there that doesn't know the Lord and I've experienced great tragedy. And I look at you and say, How can you really say that? How can you say that the Lord's been there when he's allowed you to go through all this tragedy?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yeah. Uh it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

It's hard when we can't see God in the situation that we're in, and the amount of pain and suffering that you've been through is unimaginable.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

But God does see you and he sees your pain.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

And I think one day when we stand before him face to face and we look into his loving face, he's gonna make everything right, and he's going to show us you know, his presence and his love that we can't always feel perfectly here on this earth. But you know, I think that's where sometimes we just have to have like a little bit of faith is when we can't feel it, we can't see it, but just trusting that he is there and he sees us in our pain. And as I've said a million times, like he promises his eternal life through his son Jesus Christ, and he's you know, he's gonna show us everything when we get to heaven.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

And I think what you said um a moment ago really is is part of the answer. What what we see is that he really is our only hope. If if we look at the book of Job, what we see is all this chaos and pain and suffering on the earth and all this tragedy. Meanwhile, in heaven, everything's under control. God's in complete control. He's still good, he's still all powerful, he has a reason for doing this, he just doesn't tell us why. And so there's there is purpose in this. He just doesn't invite us into his conference room and uh ask our opinion. He basically says the same thing to us as he says to the apostle Paul, my grace is official. And so the answer really is where else are you gonna go? I I'm reminded of uh Jesus in John chapter six. He he fed a lot of people and then he took them out into the wilderness and said some very difficult things until they all left. And then he turns to the 12 and said, Are you gonna go too? And Peter says, To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And so what I always usually tell is to my atheist friends, you may sit and complain about human suffering, but Christianity is really the only one with an answer. We do have the book of the Bible where we have God in control and he will right every wrong in the end, and he will wipe away every tear. To the atheist, life is just really hard, and then you die, and that's it. But we have the hope that he will comfort us in the end. And so I I would ask you, having gone through multiple tragedies and looking at this from the other side, can you say that God is still there, that he's still comforting, and that you may not know why all these things happen, but God is still good and he's still comforting. Can you say that?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Absolutely. Yeah. Um, there was a song by Mercy Me that came out the year Joshua died, and it was even if. And they recently came out with a movie about that. But that song um is about, you know, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego uh going about to be going into the fire when they refuse to worship Nebuchadnezzar, I believe. And they said, even if our God doesn't save us, our hope is in him alone. And that has kind of become an anthem for me. I mean, even if we don't understand what's happening, even if we can't see the purpose through the pain, even if everything goes wrong, our hope is in Christ. Like you were saying. I mean, he is the only hope. I I would rather live, you know, like if you're talking to an atheist and they're like, what if you're wrong? I would rather live this way with hope than to live as an atheist and just like you said, suffer and then die. Like, even if everything about my faith was wrong, I'd rather live the way that I'm living now with hope and encouragement and you know, a way to comfort others.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

After all you've been through, and God has obviously allowed these things to come to your life. Can you still look on the other side of this and say that God is still worthy of worship? Is he still a God that is worthy to be followed and worthy to be worshipped?

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Yeah, I absolutely believe that. I think there's a lot of mystery in God and what he allows, um, but he is absolutely worthy of our praise. I mean, and just I am in awe of him. I mean, all you have to do is go to the top of a mountain or anywhere in nature and just be in awe of what he's created. It's incredible. And, you know, he deserves everything that we have to give. And he is good, and he has brought good out of Joshua's death, out of my brother Pat's death. And like I said, even if it's not um maybe in the ways we want, like maybe it's not a revival that's happening, but maybe your heart is changed. Maybe that person that was really stubborn towards Christ, maybe they've softened a bit. Like sometimes it can be um softer things and less obvious things than we think or hope. Um, but yeah, I also want to say there's this um Corey Ten Boom. She's an amazing lady. She's passed away, but she lost her brother or her sister and her dad in the concentration camps in World War II. And she used an illustration of, you know, the back of a tapestry where it's just all the strings embroidered, you know, hanging out, and it looks like an absolute mess. And that's what our life can feel like. But you turn it over and it's this beautiful picture, but we don't see that beautiful picture until sometimes, you know, when we're up in heaven and we see what God was doing in all those moments.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Corey Tinboom was the one, of course, whose family were hiding Jews during Nazi Germany, during World War II. And she wrote a book. Her most famous book was called The Hiding Place. I'd recommend that to our listeners. But she wrote some other books as well. But she was one that had experienced great tragedy and spent the rest of her life talking about how the Lord had worked through that. And so, well, along that, I'll I'll ask you a similar question. You're looking at this through this series of tragedies. Can you at this point still say that God is good and that your faith has come out of it intact? The reason I want to re-emphasize that, I know you've mentioned it already, but there are people that get to tragedy and it it rocks their faith. And so I guess the way to phrase it is this somebody out there listening to us has some Christian background, maybe a strong Christian, maybe a light Christian background, but they've experienced some tragedy and it's it's rocked their world. And they're that's why they've they've they've found this conversation today, and their faith is shaking. What would you say to that person today?

SPEAKER_02 53:57

Yeah, well, I think so. Um when my son Joshua died, I met with another woman whose son had also just died. He was five days old. We both were living on hope, hope and a prayer, and you know, our worlds came crashing down. So my friends, uh, we both really wrestled with our faith. And I honestly, I think today she's still wrestling with a lot of questions with the Bible, and it it threw her world wide open with her faith. Um, it made her re-examine everything she thought she knew about God. So I know what you're saying, where you know, you you even have this movement of like deconstruction, all these people are deconstructing their faith. Um and, you know, I think that's fine to let it test your faith and and it will strengthen, it can strengthen your faith or turn you away. But I think for it to strengthen your faith, you have to dig back into God's word and explore those questions that you have an answer to. My friend is still a Christian. Um, she she does have some beliefs that you know might be not as much mainstream, but she believes in the core tenets of Christianity. And yeah, I think I think for you to hold on to your faith, it's important to wrestle and to just keep digging into God's word, and I think God will reveal himself to you. Um absolutely, you know, God is still good, and I believe that he allows these things to happen, but I don't think that he wants, you know, all these murders and violence, and he doesn't, you know, want all this pain and suffering. He his plan was for us to be in the Garden of Eden walking with him, you know, in perfect peace, and sin screwed that up. And so that's what we're kind of left with, you know, here on this earth. But he mil will make things right again, and his character is always good, you know. He can't he can't sin, he can't do anything wrong. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Has the suffering changed the way you look at eternity or the way you think about God and the afterlife?

Heaven, Healing, And Keep Going

SPEAKER_02 56:37

I think so, definitely. I think I think um in one way it's just I think about it more, you know. I'm excited for it. I think when I was a kid, I thought, oh, heaven might be boring. Like, you know, are we just gonna stand around and sing songs? Um and I think a lot of Christians can kind of feel that way. Like it's just so foreign to us. We have no idea. I mean, it talks a little bit in the Bible about certain things about heaven, but there's not like a super clear picture. And so I think it's just so hard for us to imagine. But for me, I mean, I love my life and I love watching my three kids grow up, and you know, there's such beauty in life, but I'm also so excited to be in heaven with Jesus and with my loved ones that have died. Um, I think it it also opens up your your mind more to that, to the supernatural. I mean, even strong Christians, you know, they a lot of times they don't talk about angels or demons or just that whole other spiritual side, which is actually mentioned in the Bible quite a bit. Um so yeah, I think it kind of opens up your world to like, wow, there's a lot going on that we have no idea about just in the spiritual realm. And I'm excited for heaven. I've read, I've read books, you know, what heaven will be like, um, just based on the Bible. And then also like people's near near-death experiences and some certain things that they've experienced and seen. And yeah, I'm excited for it.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

You talked about that there were some, of course, some very, very low valleys and some very dark times in your life. And in the midst of those very dark times, you probably couldn't see past that at the time. But looking back on that now, did you make it through? What's life like now? Are are you able to get through life and and see some normality to your life today?

SPEAKER_02 58:51

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great question because what I see in a lot of people who are new in their grief is they just feel like it's never gonna get better. And actually, not too long ago, I posted in a grief group on Facebook that I don't want you guys to believe the lie that it never gets easier. It does get easier. Your grief is always there, um, but it's not at all in the same way as when you're new in your grief and it's all consuming. And you know, I had a lot of people get mad at me um for saying that, that it gets easier. And here's why I think that is I think people think that when they lose someone, if it gets easier, they they equate their pain to their love of that person. Like if I'm happy, then that must mean that I don't love them as much anymore, or I'm getting over it. You don't get over it, you know, you move forward and you absolutely can have joy and happiness again. And I I think a lot of that too is you know, having a relationship with God because you have hope for the future and you have hope for seeing them again. But absolutely, I mean, you know, I love life right now and I love being a mom and watching my kids and all their various sports and I laugh all the time, like you know, those times of immense grief they do get better, and like I said, it doesn't mean that something might trigger, you know taking you back to that day that it happened or whatnot. I mean, those times happen, but they become further apart, and so they're always a part of you, you'll always miss your loved one. Um, but you can go on to have, you know, a joyful, meaningful life.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

I would imagine you would always have this this dark, empty spot where that that loved one was. And uh again, like you're saying, people don't want to think that, well, the loss of my loved one is meaningless. No, it it's it's a great meaning, but we can't live there and never get past it. We have to be able to do service work for the Lord. We have other people that are depending on us. We have to get past a pain where we can live somewhat of a normal life. And and I think you're you're telling us that that's possible, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Yeah, absolutely. And I I know a lot of people say, you know, it's a new normal. Like life is never gonna be like it was when your loved one was alive. And that's something you're grieving. Like life will never be the same, but it can be good again, you know, even if it's not the same, it can be good again. And yeah, I mean, we have that ultimate hope in Jesus, which is everything.

Ministry Links And Farewell

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

So at this point, you're working on a book, right? And you have a website, remind us of your website, and you're you're available to speak, right? That's that's part of your ministry. Am I correct? Yes. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So my website is ashleygladder.com, just one D in Gladder. Um, but yeah, I love to speak about my faith and suffering and loss. Um, yeah, so I love to speak. I am writing, I've written some articles and such, and have become like a regular contributor to certain blogs. And yeah, ultimately I just signed with an agent. And so hopefully we'll get a publisher soon. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

So any uh any final words? I mean, you're you're you've got this great story and you've made it through, and you certainly look good and sound good. And uh I'm sure I'm sure there were there were times past and again when the valleys were there that that wasn't the case. But what would be your final message to the world out there based on look looking back on all the tragedies that you've gone through?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Yeah, I like I I think it's a song now, but they say if it's not good, it's not over. You know, if it's not better, it's not over. So if you're in like one of those really hard times, just know that like just keep going. Um during my son's life, I likened him to Nemo from the movie Finding Nemo. And because Nemo only had one fin, well, one good fin, and my son only had one arm. So in the movie, the motto is kind of just keep swimming. So that's what I always try to encourage people with. It's like just keep going, like even through the hard times, just take that next step and then the next step, and then the next step, and like eventually you'll get through the fog to a place where you have you know a little more perspective and enjoy. So just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Well, great. And we'd like to to thank you, Ashley, for appearing on our program today. You've you you've been quite profound. I I uh can't say I'm glad that that you had to go through all that, but I I think that like the book of Job, your your story can help a great number of people. And so I'm I'm glad for that. And for those of our listeners, again, AshleyGladder.com, and we trust that you'll reach out to her if you were interested at all in her ministry or the rest of her materials. Our ministry, Reasoning Through the Bible, you can find us at rtb.net or reasoningthible.com. Our normal thing that we do is chapter by chapter, verse by verse Bible study. We have teaching materials that are free to help you teach the Bible in your church or small group. And we trust that that you'll be checking out those things as well in our regular program. Again, we'll be back to next time. Thank you for watching and listening and make up a blessed.