Reasoning Through the Bible
Taking a cue from Paul, Reasoning Through the Bible is an expository style walk through the Scriptures that tells you what the Bible says. Reviewing both Old and New Testament books, as well as topical subjects, we methodically teach verse by verse, even phrase by phrase.
We have completed many books of the Bible and offer free lesson plans for teachers. If you want to browse our entire library by book or topic, see our website www.ReasoningThroughTheBible.com.
We primarily do expository teaching but also include a good bit of theology and apologetics. Just like Paul on Mars Hill, Christianity must address both the ancient truths and the questions of the people today. Join Glenn and Steve every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday as they reason with you through the Bible.
Reasoning Through the Bible
God's Choosing vs Our Believing || Understanding Reformed Theology || Part 3 of 5
This is Part 3 of a 5 Part series on the evaluation of Reformed Theology, also referred to as Calvinism. We hope you will join us for this complete series.
Does God choose us, or do we choose Him? This age-old theological question lies at the heart of Reformed Theology (Calvinism), and in this thought-provoking episode, we dive deep into the biblical text to find answers.
Moving beyond theoretical discussions, we examine the actual passages that form the foundation of Reformed thought. Starting with the Greek word "electos" (chosen), we explore what it means when applied to God's actions before the foundation of the world. Does God deliberate in His choices? Can an eternal God who knows all things actually "choose" in the way humans understand choice?
Ephesians 1:3-4 becomes our central text: "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." We carefully analyze what Paul means by being "in Christ" and whether God chooses specific individuals or establishes a mechanism for salvation. The subtle but crucial shift in Ephesians 1:12-13 from divine action ("He blessed, chose, predestined") to human response ("you listened, you believed") provides a fascinating window into the interplay between God's sovereignty and human responsibility.
Throughout our examination, we maintain a commitment to letting the text speak for itself rather than imposing theological systems onto Scripture. This approach reveals nuances often missed in heated debates between Calvinists and Arminians, suggesting that perhaps both sides capture important truths about salvation.
Whether you're a committed Calvinist, a strong proponent of free will, or simply seeking to understand what the Bible actually teaches, this episode offers fresh insights that will challenge your thinking and deepen your appreciation for God's redemptive work.
Thank you for listening!! Please give us a five-star rating to help your podcast provider's algorithm spread RTTB among their listeners.
You can find free study and leader resources at the following link - Resource Page - Reasoning Through the Bible
Please prayerfully consider supporting RTTB to help us to continue providing content and free resources. You can do that at this link - Support RTTB - Reasoning Through the Bible
May God Bless you!! - Glenn and Steve
Hello and welcome to Reasoning Through the Bible. We are in the midst of a series that we're doing a special topic on Reformed Theology, also known as Calvinism. Today, this session, we're going to start going through a series of Bible passages and we're going to assume that you've been through the first two sessions that we did that gave an overview of what is Reformed theology and our evaluation of it, with things that are strong and possible weaknesses. So today, what we're going to do, what really needs to be done, which is to go through individual Bible passages and wrestle with what they're actually saying and try to dive into the meanings of each, and since there's many of these, then we're going to just see how it goes.
Speaker 1:This may run into more than one session, but again, especially if you're new to Reformed theology, you really need to listen to the first two before you get into this one. And today we're probably going to see some of the areas that Steve and I may not see eye to eye on, but we'll also see some things that we do agree on. And so there's and it's always fun to study the Word of God. So we're going to go into a good bit of detail today, steve, are we not?
Speaker 2:We are going to do that and, so as to set this up, I'm going to switch over to a slide that I have here, a few slides, and when we go through the verses we'll probably throw these things up as well. Before we start, I want to say that we will put this documentation out on our resource page. So if you want to go look at these documents whenever you're listening to this or watching this or afterwards, you can go and pull those things down from our resource page on our website, reasoningthroughthebiblecom. So let me show you what I've done here. So what I did, glenn, is I went out and did a word search and this is in using the Bible of the NASB 95, and did a search for everywhere where the word elect was used and also where the word chosen choice, where that is used as well, and there's eight verses that came back with the specific word elect in the NASB. And then for chosen. There were a little bit over 200 verses that came back and I categorized them in the verses that says that they were talking about chosen the places of God, such as Jerusalem, chosen people such as the Levitical priests, and chosen for different reasons that didn't have anything to do with salvation. I categorized those and what I came down to were these particular nine verses that kind of deal with salvation, or at least have been used in conjunction with talking about salvation. So these are some of the verses. We're not going to go through all of them, but these are some of the verses that we will talk about today. So on the left-hand side, I do want to say that when you see there, matthew, chapter 24 and Mark, chapter 13,. Both of those sections of scripture are dealing with the Olivet Discourse. So when the usage of the word that's used there in those particular texts they're talking about God's elect in relation to the nation of Israel or the Israelites, because that's the time that Jesus is talking about in his Olivet Discourse, which is the end time period there, which leaves us with Luke and Romans that we can talk about in a little bit more.
Speaker 2:The other thing on chosen is that there's the combination of the word electos and some of the other words that derive from that. So while the translators decided to use the word chosen in those verses on the right-hand side, the root word behind it is most commonly electos. That's usually the word that is used behind that particular one. So let me give the description of the word electos, which I'll show here and then from that we can start going into some of these verses. Sounds good when you look at the word electos, it's Strong's number 1588, and it's used in these verses. I have three different dictionaries that are depicted here. One is the Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament. The other is the most common one, referred to as BDAG, and the last one there is Vine's Complete Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words.
Speaker 1:One just explanation. When you say BDAG, there's a Greek lexicon by Bauer, danker, arndt and Gingrich and it's just commonly called BDAG and it's probably at least one of the more current best lexicons.
Speaker 2:So as I've got the word depicted here. In the first one, the complete word study, it says that electos is a derivative from the root word eklego, which means to choose or select, and that this word electos means chosen, select. It's in the group of three important biblical words electos, elego and eclogue and it means choice or election. And what I have highlighted here is something I think is important. In this dictionary they draw out that the selection involves thoughtful and deliberate consideration. So keep that in mind because I'll be referring to that in part of this session. There in BDAG it means pertaining to be selected, chosen of those whom God has chosen, and in the highlighted part there it says hints of Christians in particular, and then in the Old Testament as of the Israelites. So even on this particular word it's saying that the word itself is used in relation to how the Christians are described, but in the Old Testament it's noted of the Israelites. Then the last one there in vines just simply says signifies chosen out or select elect.
Speaker 1:So just a comment about that one, steve, especially that first one. The definition there that says choice or election involving thoughtful or deliberate consideration, I would agree. I mean that's what the reference book says it means. The issue involves is when we apply it to God, because God does not have thoughtful or deliberate consideration about anything ever, and the reason being is that God doesn't think in deliberations. God doesn't look at something, figure out what it means and then make a choice.
Speaker 1:This is one of the root issues with basing election on foreknowledge is because God doesn't look at a creature and learn what it's going to do and then make a decision based on that. So I would agree the term means thoughtful and deliberate deliberation. God doesn't think in sequence and he doesn't deliberate because he already knows everything. If he had to deliberate on something one, it would mean that prior to that he didn't know it and secondly, he had to learn something from a creature, which means we've got a limited God and there's a huge issue. So part of the thing here with the whole election free will issue and especially election, part of is God just knows and he knows from all eternity and he has determined things from all eternity. It plays out in time, but he doesn't thoughtfully deliberate about anything, let alone salvation.
Speaker 2:And I would agree with that particular description related to God, however, with other things, of describing God to us as mankind, so that we can understand just like the word foreknowledge is used. We talked about that in our last session. The word foreknowledge is used for our purposes because that's how we think we live in this linear time frame, and so to us it's foreknowledge, but to God it's just knowledge, and I think that's in this same genre in that, no, there's not a specific deliberation from God, god just knows. But that's the word that's been used selected to be used in the Greek to describe this choice or selection that's made, and so I think that it can be applied from that particular point for an understanding from us on the mankind side, to have a fuller understanding in regards to what the word means and what the outcome of what the choice and stuff is. But I would agree that God just knows and there's not any particular deliberation that has to take place. So, as we begin here and talk about specific verses, I do want to go through one thing here, glenn, that talks about how. I do want to go through one thing here, glenn, that talks about how Paul uses this concept of being in Christ.
Speaker 2:So I have some verses here of his introductory statements to the different believers that he was writing to at the different places. So the first one there is Philippians 1.1. Says Paul and Timothy, bond servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons. Then in Colossians he writes Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy, our brother, to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae. Grace to you and peace from God, our Father.
Speaker 2:In 1 Thessalonians he says from Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God, the Father, church of the Thessalonians in God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Then in 2 Thessalonians he says the exact same thing. He has the same greeting to the church of the Thessalonians in God, our Father and Lord Jesus Christ. So as we go into and start talking about some of these, one of them is going to be Ephesians. Chapter 1 is going to be one of the ones we're going to talk about. I wanted to set the stage that Paul uses this concept of being in Christ, that believers are in Christ. When we went through Colossians we specifically called out in Colossians in many, many of those sessions, that Paul's argument was you're either in Christ or you're not in Christ, and when you're in Christ, you have all of these characteristics and attributes that you get whenever you become in Christ, and so being in Christ is synonymous with somebody that has expressed their belief in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:So let me just make sure I'm grasping what you're saying. What you're saying is that there's this group of people that are in Christ and those are saved people. Those people, in a New Testament sense, have salvation right, correct? And so when he are you saying that, when it refers to the elect, it is this if we draw a circle around these people in Christ, that's who he's talking about.
Speaker 2:Right, and I would say, and probably gonna make the case, that the word elect and chosen, it's always talked about in a plural plurality of people us, we and not in specific individuals. So it's used more in the case of a group or a categorization of people that are the elect, they are chosen ones, they are ones who have been chosen, they are ones who have been called out and they're in this group or category that, once they're in Christ, that they are the elect.
Speaker 1:So are you saying there's this category or this group of in Christ and that God foreknew, or at least looked at? Oh, those are all the people over there that are in Christ. I'm going to elect that group. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:I would not put it that way.
Speaker 2:I would put that again, forno is because of us that we are in a linear timeline.
Speaker 2:I would say that what I believe that the concept is and what Scripture leads to is that before the creation, if God created anything, he knew with his knowledge that man was going to be sinful, that there was going to be a division between him and a separation between him and mankind, and that there was going to be to be a mechanism or a way for man to be reconciled back to himself.
Speaker 2:And through that mechanism is through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. And in Romans, chapter 3, verses 19 to 25, it's clear that God did this so that he could both be just and the justifier and that Jesus was the satisfactory sacrifice in that process. So that was the way, before the creation of the world, that God decided this is how man is going to be brought back and reconciled to myself and that when those people express that belief that then they're in this group called the elect or the chosen ones. So I wouldn't put it necessarily that before the creation that God said there are certain people I will choose unilaterally to put into this group called the elect.
Speaker 1:That's what the strict reform guys are going to say. That's correct. They're going to say that from eternity, past the elect are the ones he chose.
Speaker 2:That's correct and I would not put it that way that that group is ones that he decided he would choose and that the other people not chosen are the ones he decided not to choose. Now again, they would say. Many of them would say no, no, god does not choose to not select the others. They do that and make their own choice. But to me it doesn't follow the logical conclusion. If he decides to choose certain ones before the foundation of the world, unilaterally and that's a key word for me unilaterally, okay, then he then has to logical conclusion decide that he's unilaterally, is not going to choose the other group.
Speaker 1:Okay so here's what I would respond. I think that good explanation, since we're in the sessions. That's talking about exegeting the Bible passages. What I'd say is what you just described. It doesn't say that here. All it's saying in these verses about being in Christ is that you're in Christ. It's not saying in these passages how you got in there. It's just talking to these group of people. So if we're trying to hold each other's feet to the fire here my own feet and yours and you mentioned three or four of them here he's addressing these epistles to those in Christ. He's not saying how you got there. Correct In this passage. In these passages, what we would agree on is that the elect if you draw a circle around the elect, it's those that are in Christ. It's not talking about something else.
Speaker 2:That's correct, and I'm just using these passages to talk about whenever we get into Ephesians 1, to use this concept that Paul has, this concept that people that are in Christ are the ones that are the elect or are saved. Agree with you. He's not talking about how that happens here.
Speaker 1:Now there's one qualification that we might ought to give here and I'm not sure we'll get to it with this list of verses we're about to go through or not, but the term elect is used in more than one sense in the scriptures In Romans 9, 10, 11, it talks about the elect, but it's talking about the people from Israel that were a chosen race of people there. And lest you think that's an isolated to our audience, lest you think that's an isolated teaching, in our past sessions we mentioned WTT Shedd, who was the straight down the line reformer before any kind of dispensationalist people that came along, taught two elections of one from Israel and one from those that are saved. Lewis Berry, chafer taught the same thing. There's others that teach the same thing that there's more than one election, that there was an election of the Old Testament Israel in the sense of a nation election, and then there's an election of people that are saved in Christ, and that the term is used in a different way are saved in Christ and that the term is used in a different way.
Speaker 1:It's strictly and you pointed out the lexical definition of it just to choose, and we need to be careful not to read into these passages what we think it means with the election. We just need to take what does the context mean when it's making a choice? It's really no different than the word saved. If you use saved or salvation, in some cases it's talking about saved from sickness. In other places it's talking about saved from sin, and so we need to be careful when we look at these passages. What type of election we're doing? And maybe we'll get to it when we get to these passages, but just don't want to make that distinction. There are more than one, more than two Bible teachers that use more than one election.
Speaker 2:And that is one of my arguments is that the word elect and the word chosen because again, the root word of chosen is electos in many occasions, or from those roots that it's been taken to where, every time it's used, that it means salvation. I would say that if you look at the text themselves which we'll do some that it's talking about being elect or chosen for a purpose, and that other times it uses this word elect as the group of the saved people. So in the Old Testament the elect is used of the nation of Israel. That has nothing to do with salvation, because the elect, the chosen people of Israel, it had some that were believers in Yahweh and some that were not believers at all, but yet they were known as God's choice, the apple of his eye, and the elect, the ones that he chose as a group.
Speaker 1:So speaking of chose, why don't we go ahead and jump into one of the main passages, ephesians chapter one, 1, and Ephesians chapter 1 is one of the favorite passages from our Reformed friends because there's a lot of things in Ephesians 1 that talk about what God does, and we'll talk about some of this. We're not going to exegete the entire chapter here, but Ephesians 1, verses 3 and 4 say this Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before him in love. That part right there, especially verse four, is one of the main passages that get used and brought up in the discussion of Reformed theology. Again, ephesians 1, verse 4, says just as he meaning God, he chose us in him, meaning Christ before the foundation of the world. So a reformed person would say look, it says right there God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless. And the blameless part is the part that clearly means salvation, because if you're holy and blameless before God prior to salvation, we're not holy and blameless. We're unrighteous and we're full of blame and full of God's wrath because of our sin. But in order to become holy and blameless, according to Ephesians 1, 4, he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Speaker 1:So the Reformed person would stand here and say can't you read? It's really clear. He says he chose us, and they would even add the word to be in Christ. He chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world. But even just as it reads, he chose us in Christ. And when did he did it? Before the foundation of the world, before we were ever born. And so the reformed people would rest here and say, case closed. He chose us to be in Christ so that we would be saved. So what say ye?
Speaker 2:So I have some markup here in the text and I agree with the way you read it there and it's the way I have it marked that he chose us in him, that there's no pause. There's no, he chose us pause in him. That it's a solid thought, that he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. And the reason is for the purpose is that we would be holy and blameless before him in love. So this concept that I mentioned before, that Paul talks about often in his epistles of being in Christ or not in Christ, that he is keeping in the same vein of that when he's writing to these Ephesians In Ephesians 1, he says to the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus, and as we follow that down, he says that whom are blessed with every spiritual blessing. In verse 3, the heavenly places in Christ and to continue with that. That's the same sentence. There's no pause there, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. So I take that and look at that to be that it's fitting in that concept of in Christ. That's how we have salvation, we have salvation in Christ, and that God, before the foundation of the world said this is the way that I'm going to reconcile mankind back to myself. It's going to be through Christ. The ones who believe in him are going to be in Christ and that's how I'm going to reconcile man back to myself.
Speaker 2:Where I differ with what you called out on the Reformed, where they want to put sometimes not on everyone to be, the text does not say to be in Christ. It says that he chose us in Christ. So I see that as just keeping in the same vein of Paul's general message of being in Christ. That's the method or the way that God selected before the foundation of the world of creation, that that was the way that mankind was going to be reconciled back to himself. So once again, as we look at that also, everything here is a group. He chose us in him and to all the saints who are faithful in Christ. So there's not any type of individuality that's noted here and I think in the past in our discussions you said, well, but there has to be individuals that get into Christ, correct? But I think again, it's this idea and concept that being in Christ, you have salvation. That's the way and the method that God chose and selected for people to be reconciled back to himself.
Speaker 1:So let me just ask to clarify and make sure I understand what you're saying. Ephesians 1, verse 4 says he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Are you denying that the choosing is what causes us to be in Christ?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not, Because I believe that scripture is clear that God does choose us.
Speaker 1:Okay. In other words, the question is how did we get in Christ? The Reformed guy would say it's his choosing. Is what causes us to be in Christ. Right, and I think what I hear you saying is that the choice was of whoever happened to be in the group and the Reformed guys say no, he chose us, happened to be in the group, and the reformed guys say no, he chose us, he chose the individuals to make up the group that I'm going to pick one, three, five and seven to be in Christ and I'm not going to choose two, four, six, eight and those are not going to be in Christ. And so, therefore, I chose those in Christ. And I think what you're saying is that his choice didn't cause the group.
Speaker 2:Here's how I would put it Whenever Abraham believed in God, god reckoned it to him as being righteous. That gives an idea that there was a choice that was made by God. God chose to reckon that belief that Abraham expressed in him as righteousness. So that's where this word comes back to, that it depicts a deliberation or a selection from that standpoint we talked about at the very beginning, and I agree that God doesn't have to deliberate on anything, but it's not an automatic. In other words, when Abraham expressed his belief in God, god wasn't bound to have to reckon it as righteousness. He did, and he is bound from the standpoint of in regards to Christ, because he has said through scripture that whoever shall believe on Jesus Christ will have eternal life. So from that particular case, it is a promise that he has made and he's bound in that regard, that he's made it clear that that's the way to salvation.
Speaker 2:But if it goes back to what the Calvinists like to always talk up God's sovereignty and God can do what he wants to do and he can do anything he wants to well, god can at any point in time say no, I'm not going to recognize that. But whenever somebody expresses faith, god knows whether or not they are sincere in it or whether they're not sincere in it, but it's so. There's a choice. Am I going to accept that or not? Is that person sincere or not? That's how I describe this choice. That's related. So to go back to clarify your question, is that? No, I'm not saying that. God arbitrarily, before the foundation of the world, said I'm going to save particular people one, three, five and seven but 2, 4, 6, and 8, person I'm not going to save. I don't think that that is consistent with what Scripture says.
Speaker 1:Okay, so response. First of all again and we did this last time in the last session the Reformed guys would reply back and say well, he's not arbitrary, he's full of infinite wisdom and so nothing in God is arbitrary. He's all wise and his wise choice can choose who to be in the group. That's what they would say, and we then pointed out that that's inconsistent, because if you're going to hold that to strong, total depravity, there's no criteria to be wise upon, because there's just nothing there to make a wise choice upon. Nevertheless, that's what they would reply. I mean, to me it's just fairly clear he chose us and he chose the group. But it's not saying here I don't think you can get from this language in this verse that there's this not saying here, I don't think you can get from this language in this verse that there's this group out here and he chose this group for some purpose, called, you know, for whatever, to be a church or something. If he chose the group, he chose the individuals in the group, and what I think it's really saying.
Speaker 1:The grammar of the sentence really starts back in verse 3, and it hinges on the words just as right.
Speaker 1:So what he's really saying is that God blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places that we would be holy and blameless before him.
Speaker 1:That's what he's saying. But what he's saying is, you know, just like he chose us in him, then that same way he's blessing us with every spiritual blessing and he's doing all of that so that we can be holy and blameless before him in love. So the blessing us with every spiritual blessing is in the same way as he chose us in Christ, and all of that is so that we would be holy and blameless before him. So to me there's a logical dependence here in the sentence in between the blessing in verse 3 and the choosing in verse 4, and the being holy and blameless before him in love. In other words, the logical dependence in the sentence is the only way we can be blameless before him is if he chose us in Christ and I think that's what it's saying and that I can take a strong view of the election there, and that what it's saying in verse 4 is the reason why we're holy and blameless and the blameless is strong justification is because he chose us in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, I agree with the choosing, that God does the choosing and I've explained how I believe that that is done. So on these verses here, I have depicted in the bottom part there where I have the red X's, that I don't think there is this division here that he chose us, pause in him and the we is that he chose us. I believe the one with the check mark above it is that the we is that whole. He chose us in him, being that he chose us in Christ. And then the last verse that I have there, which is the first one, is that we don't do that with the first verse. We don't say who are faithful, pause in Christ Jesus. We read that. Or saying who are faithful in Christ Jesus, we read that first verse all is one, and so therefore verse four should be read as all is one as well. But let me address this If we read a little bit further into chapter two, if we have this concept that God chooses people before the foundation of the world and thus doesn't choose other people before the foundation of the world to be in Christ, okay, if we follow that logic, when we look at chapter 2, chapter 2 starts off there and he says you were dead in your trespasses and sins in verse 1, in which you formerly walked, according to the course of this world, according to the prince of power of the heir of the spirit that is now working with the sons of disobedience.
Speaker 2:And so if we have this concept of God choosing specific individuals before the foundation of the world and not choosing other individuals, then we're not born in Christ. And chapter two, verse one through three, there the first couple of verses make that clear. We're born not in Christ. So the question comes into well then, when did we become in Christ? And with me it was at the age of eight. With you it was at the age of 25. Right, with other people it's at the age of 80s. When they're in their 80s, after they've lived a life with some people, they have done very horrendous deeds in their life before they come to Christ, before they have become a believer, and then are in Christ.
Speaker 2:And so, to reread a little bit further, in my mind it's a little bit of inconsistency to have this idea that, okay, before the foundation of the world, god chooses certain people to be in Christ. He doesn't choose others to be in Christ, and within that group that he chose before the foundation of the world. He also says but I'm going to choose that person to be in Christ at eight, and I'm going to choose another person to be in Christ at 25, and I'm going to choose another person to be in Christ after they've gone through 10 years of drug abuse, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so that, to me, is a dilemma that doesn't explain or is inconsistent with the rest of Scripture that describes people that they're coming to Christ because they come to a point that they realize that they need to be reconciled back to God.
Speaker 1:And for our audience. You see how the arms of the octopus tend to move a lot, like we said at the beginning. Because my next question would be back on the morality of God and we're into a theological discussion, but back to the Bible passages. One last question about 1-4, and then we'll move on to the next thing. In 1-4, he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless, the that I'm assuming we could translate so that, or in order that right, he's saying a conclusion there, is he not? So there's a conclusion that's being drawn that we would be holy and blameless, and the blameless again is the key word justification. So is it not saying that there's a logical conclusion there? He chose us that we could be holy and blameless. It is not an if-then, so to speak, or a so-that the first condition is met and then the conclusion draws he chose us in him before the foundation of the world so that we would be holy and blameless. Is not there a holy and blameless dependent on the choosing?
Speaker 2:Well, and I would say that that's correct that there is a condition. The condition is in Him. So, to go back to the way I've expressed, it is that the condition for salvation is to be in Christ and that when you're in Christ then you would be holy and blameless before Him. Again, colossians spoke really strongly about that and we discussed that at length whenever we went through Colossians. So again, it comes back to that. Yes, I would put that condition of in him. That's the way and that that's the choice, is the general way to be, have salvation.
Speaker 1:So for our audience right here is where it falls into 12 more weeks of yes it does. No, it's not, yes, it does. Now, what I want to talk about in Ephesians 1 is something that our Calvinist friends are not going to like, because this passage, I think, is a supporter of something that I don't hear them talk about. First of all, ephesians 1 is just a wonderful, wonderful passage and it has a long list in there of these wonderful things that God is doing for us. And if you just start at Ephesians 1 and just kind of walk your way down through the passage just in chapter 1, I counted 25 things that God does for us. It's a long list. He does all these beautiful, wonderful things, and it's obvious from the verb tenses in the passage that God is doing these things, and that's one of the reasons why our Reformed friends love it, and so does everybody else, for that matter. He blessed us, he chose us, he predestined us, he bestowed on us, he redeemed us, he forgave us, he lavished grace on us, he made known to us his will, he gave us an inheritance, he sealed us, he gave us a redemption, he gave us wisdom, and on and on and on these 25 things, and they're all wonderful and he does them all. So this beautiful list of all this wonderful stuff that God does for us, he is doing it, he did this, he did that, he did the other thing. God did this. He bestows on us, he seals us.
Speaker 1:Right in the middle, verses 12 and 13,. Literally almost right in the middle of verses 12 and 13, literally almost right in the middle of the list of 25, we were the first to hope. Verse 13,. You listened, verse 13,. You believed Whoa, wait a minute time out. Why'd you change Paul? He changed right in the middle. Again, big list, wonderful, tremendous spiritual, theological concepts redemption, wisdom, sealing, predestination, forgiveness. He does it, he does it, he does it. You heard, you believed. To me that is a 10-foot-high glowing red neon sign that we did it. It was our faith.
Speaker 2:Why do.
Speaker 1:I think it's our faith, because it says so right in the passage. If it would have been the case that he caused us to believe, this would have been the place it was been. If it was the case, he gave us the ability to believe, it would have been here Because 25 things again he gave us redemption, he lavished grace, he purposed his intentions. He gave us redemption, he lavished grace, he purposed his intentions. He gave us an inheritance, he predestined us. He works all things we hoped, you listened, you believed. And then he goes back to the list God sealed us. God gives us pledge he will redeem us. He gives us wisdom. Pledge, he will redeem us. He gives us wisdom. So he breaks the pattern where Right at the point of belief.
Speaker 1:This is why I think that, yes, there's a lot of benefits to Reformed theology, but we have glasses on. Sometimes we put on these systematic theological glasses and we miss very obvious again, flashing red neon sign who believed, you believed. Who listened, you listened. And you have to listen prior to the belief. And so the logical case here is that the listening and the belief, which is the salvific belief, is done by the person, and it's not a good work, it's just listening and believing and therefore all of the work of righteousness happens with all these other things, and to me, this is just one of the strongest cases that the belief is ours and regeneration before faith is not taught in Scripture and belief is not a work of righteousness.
Speaker 1:The whole monergism-synergism debate is a nice thing to sit on the shelf, but it's not based in Scripture, it's just not so. Comment, steve, you'd probably agree with that. Yeah, I do agree with that. We're going to stop right here for today, but we have more. So, because there's a lot here, we want to cover these in detail. So be back with us next time as we continue to go through these passages about Reformed theology.
Speaker 2:And look for these resources on our website, reasoningthroughthebiblecom. As always, thank you so much for watching and listening. May God bless you.
