Reasoning Through the Bible
Taking a cue from Paul, Reasoning Through the Bible is an expository style walk through the Scriptures that tells you what the Bible says. Reviewing both Old and New Testament books, as well as topical subjects, the hosts methodically show how Scripture is one cohesive story. Critical Thinking with a little bit of theology and apologetics and you have what this podcast is about. Just like Paul on Mars Hill, Christianity today must address woke, deconstruction, and progressive Christianity, all topics that are addressed if we go purposefully through the Bible. Join Glenn and Steve weekly on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday as they reason with you through the Bible.
Reasoning Through the Bible
S27 || The Return of the King || Zechariah 14:4-8 || Session 27 || Verse by Verse Bible Study
Could Zechariah 14:4-5 be hinting at a literal event or is it all symbolic? Explore this fascinating debate with us as we unpack one of the Bible's most intriguing prophecies. You'll gain insights into the contrasting views that shape our understanding of these verses: from the belief in a physical return of Jesus to the Mount of Olives to the amillennialist perspective that sees symbolic representations linked to historical events like the Maccabean wars and Roman sieges. Join our exploration into the theological implications of these interpretations and what they might mean for the question of an actual versus a spiritual kingdom.
The passage we're going to talk about today on reasoning through the Bible is perhaps the most discussed verse and set of verses in the entire book of Zechariah. There's been more written and more discussed about what we're going to talk about in Zechariah 14, 4, and 5 than perhaps any other part of the book of Zechariah, simply because it is so clear, so direct and it seems to say something that some people's theology just doesn't align with. We're going to go through it today and discuss all sides of it. We welcome you to our program today. If you have your copy of the Word of God, open it to the Old Testament, book of Zechariah, chapter 14, and we'll start there. Steve, if you could start with verse 4 and read through verse 8.
Speaker 2:In that day, his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east side, and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle, from east to west, by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will be moved toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of my mountains, for the valley of my mountains will reach to Hazel. Yes, you will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with him. In that day there will be no light, the luminaries will dwindle, for it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light, and in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea. It will be in summer as well as in winter.
Speaker 1:With this. We have some very clear language that says someone is going to come back and put their feet on the top of the Mount of Olives. The mountain's going to split north to south, making a valley that goes east to west, and the question among different Bible teachers and different Bible interpreters over the centuries have been is this literal or is it figurative? Is this something that is symbolic of something in the spiritual life, or is it literal going to happen to a literal mountain near Jerusalem at that time? They disagree, of course, because different people's theologies disagree on whether Jesus is going to physically return to the earth in bodily form and set up an earthly kingdom, or is the kingdom entirely heavenly and spiritual in the church age? That's really the discussion. Now, steve, before I jump into the two different interpretations of this, what's your take on how this should be?
Speaker 2:approached. I think it should be approached in the way that this is written here. It's talking about actual feet. He says that the feet are going to stand on a Mount of Olives. The Mount of Olives is an actual mount. That's across the way from where the Temple Mount is, where the temple was at the time, and there's a valley in between there. I think that every bit of this should be taken as being something that is actually going to happen.
Speaker 1:And there's many people that hold that. What I'd like to do is touch on different views here and just quickly give a summary of a couple of different viewpoints on how this passage can be interpreted and has been interpreted. And we've done this as we've gone through If you've been with us through our entire book of Zechariah. We've touched on all of the passages and talked about them as we go. What I want to do now is to first give an amillennial position. What would typically be taught by an amillennialist and again, no one's questioning anybody's sincerity here it's just well, how do we approach the scriptures to interpret them? An amillennialist would look at this and say look, it's probably not going to be the case that a literal human is going to touch their feet down in the mountain and it literally split in half simply because we look at some other passages. So says the amillennialist. If we look in the same book, zechariah 4.7, it speaks of a mountain becoming a plain before Zerubbabel. The amillennialist would then say look back in chapter 4, verse 7, when he's talking about building the temple. There wasn't a mountain that turned into a plain. That didn't happen. Most people wouldn't hold that to happen. Another thing that the amillennialist would say is in chapter 14, verse 5, that we just read fleeing through a valley by a group of people on foot just doesn't make sense in modern warfare. In modern warfare, a vast group of people walking through a valley is not going to cause an escape of them. In modern warfare there's a lot of aerial things that happen and different technologies that happen. In warfare these days, people fleeing on foot through a valley just wouldn't be a valid way of escape. So says the amillennialist. If you look at the book of Zechariah in its entirety, there's a great deal of figurative language. We have women in baskets and we have women with flying wings and we have flying scrolls and we have Jerusalem presented as a cup and things like this. So the amillennialist would say look, there's a pattern here of symbolism through the book. Why would we get to this point with a mountain splitting in half and say that it's literal? The other thing that the amillennialists might claim is that the wars in history, the intertestamental period of the Maccabees and then the Romans coming up against Jerusalem, might fulfill this war that's spoken of here in Zechariah 14. Further they would say of course this is talking about Mount Zion near Jerusalem, the church over in the New Testament is spoken of as the heavenly Jerusalem is what it's called in Hebrews 12.32, and the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21. Therefore, so says the amillennialist, zechariah 14 does not have to be speaking of a literal Jerusalem, and they would hold that you're not being consistent if you then hold it this way.
Speaker 1:In response, the premillennialist would say there's a clear change in between sections of the book of Zechariah. If we just sit down and read the book from chapter 1 through verse 7 has all these apocalyptic visions and they're clearly apocalyptic visions flying scrolls and olive trees and things like this that it's clearly speaking of in this language. And just a normal reading of the text shows that there is a very definite change in between Zechariah chapters 1 through 7 and Zechariah 8 and following. For example, if I turn to Zechariah chapter 8, and I compare this to the language that happened from 7 and prior, we see a very clear change. Zechariah 8.1 says this Then the word of the Lord of hosts came saying Thus says the Lord of hosts I am exceedingly jealous for Zion.
Speaker 1:Yes, with a great wrath, I am jealous for her. Thus says the Lord I will return to Zion and will dwell in the Lord of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of age, and the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets. And the same chapter, down in verse 22, also talking about Jerusalem, says this so many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts in those days, 10 men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you Now.
Speaker 1:Those passages speak of Jewish people specifically, speak of Jerusalem specifically. And if we just read that, the plain meaning of the language gives us no grounds for holding that. It's symbolic Old men holding staffs. There's nothing symbolic about that. Children playing in the streets nothing symbolic about that. It's showing the literal happy time that would be in the city. There is a very definite change between the apocalyptic language of women with wings flying and women in baskets, things like this, and what we just read, which is a very clear statement of fact from the Lord.
Speaker 1:So the premillennialist would say if we just look at the plain reading of the text, we're going to see that Zechariah 14 falls into the section that is, an expositional one, giving statements from God about what's going to happen in the future, and not symbolism from the other parts of the book. It's illicit, so says the premillennialist, to take passages that speak of judgment against Jerusalem to be physical, the judgment to be physical, but the blessings and protection to be symbolic of the church. You can't switch in the middle here and say all the wrath and the destruction of the city, that's literal. But here, when it's talking about the blessings and the protection of the city, that's literal. But here, when it's talking about the blessings and the protection of the city, well, that's figurative of the church. Well, my friend, that's just an illicit interpretation. You're changing in the middle.
Speaker 1:Further to that, if we just look at what it says in Zechariah 14, verses 4 and 5 and following, they just do not read like a vision. If we look at those verses, the valley created quote will reach to Azel. Now, ezel is a place, there's nothing symbolic about it, it's a physical location. And it also says, quote you will flee, just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah. Well, that's referring to a historical event. And he says. This time I'm speaking about now it's going to be just like when that earthquake came and everybody had to run. The other thing it says is right there in the verse it says Zion east of Jerusalem. So if there's any question about which Zion it's talking about, it's the physical mountain east of Jerusalem. He says it specifically so you won't take it as some sort of a symbolic interpretation.
Speaker 1:If we just look at the terms in these passages from chapters 8 to 13 of Zechariah, the vast majority of the passages there are plain and non-symbolic. Quote I will strengthen the house of Judah and I will save the house of Joseph and I will bring them back because I've had compassion on them and it will be as though I had not rejected them. So says Zechariah 10.6. There's nothing symbolic there. It's plain and, yes, it's literal.
Speaker 1:If we just look at the style of the literature, the style of the sentences, the amillennialist would have us believe that there's a stylistic equivalence between a figure of speech in Zechariah 12.2 that says I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness, although amillennialist is going to say well, he wasn't literally a cup and that's exactly what they bring up.
Speaker 1:I'll agree it wasn't literally a cup, but the amillennialist is going to say there is a stylistic, literary equivalence between saying Jerusalem is a cup of drunkenness and another one they would say is in 4-7, the mountain, mountain of rubble. The city was in ruins, he had a literal mountain of rubble that had to be cleared. Or you could say, okay, he had a mountain of problems, but nevertheless, the amillennialist is going to say there is a stylistic equivalence between the mountain of rubble in 4.7 and the cup of drunkenness on one hand, and then, on the other hand, a mount of olives which is in front of Jerusalem, to the east, in 14.4. Steve, I just don't see how we can take those and hold them up against each other and hold these to be equivalent. It's very, very obvious in 14.4 when you speak of a mountain which is in front of Jerusalem, to the east. I think that's actually what it's talking about, don't you?
Speaker 2:I do think it's what it's talking about. This was given to the people of Israel as encouragement to them. We've spoken about this all throughout these last few chapters of Zechariah and you've just done a really good recap of those past few chapters and we've noted before how it switches into very literal language and actual things that are going to happen here.
Speaker 2:Glenn, one thing in verse 4, it says in that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. That reminds me of whenever Jesus departed. Whenever he departed the earth after his resurrection, where was he standing? He was standing with his feet touching on the Mount of Olives and in his ascension, as he was going up, his disciples were standing there watching him going up and you could get the picture of them looking up in the air and the angel standing next to him said why are y'all looking at this? Just the same way that Jesus has gone, he's one day going to return again.
Speaker 2:That gives the picture of just as when he was on the Mount of Olives and his feet were standing there, he ascended that he's once again going to come back and stand in that same place on the Mount of Olives. I think that puts it together in just that one aspect of it, but everything else there, as you so well pointed out, glenn, they're actual places, they're actual references to things that took place, and the prophecy itself is talking and giving encouragement to a people of Jerusalem being rebuilt and the restored kingdom and the restored Davidic throne All of that encouragement to the people. So to take now and take the church, which is a combination of both Jew and Gentile, and put that into place of this, I just don't think it works.
Speaker 1:It doesn't work not only because of what you said, but because there's a series of events that happen across Scripture that all center around the glory of the Lord and the Mount of Olives, not only the one you mentioned. But the story really starts back when God was moving Israel out of Egypt. If you remember, it said the glory of the Lord went before Israel with a cloud by day and a fire by night. In Exodus 14, 19 says God was in that cloud and it says, quote the angel of God who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them and a pillar of cloud moved before them and stood behind them. So it was physical cloud and a physical pillar of fire that physically moved and physically protected them from the attack from Pharaoh's army. It goes on when, in the wilderness, when they had set up the tabernacle, that same cloud would descend over the Holy of Holies, where the Ark of the Covenant was, to the point where in Exodus 40, 34 says, quote the cloud covered the tent of meeting and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle so it physically protected them from Pharaoh. It physically settled in the physical tabernacle and physically kept Moses out of the tent. Later, when Solomon changed from the tabernacle, which was a tent, into building the physical building which was the temple, in 1 Kings 8-11, the same glory filled the same place in the temple, so much that it says that the priest in there couldn't do their priestly duties and had to leave the building. So now we have yet another physical instance of the glory of the Lord in this cloud appearing and forcing people physically out of the building. In Ezekiel, chapters 9- 11, it speaks of the glory of the Lord leaving the temple because of Israel's disobedience, going out through the door of the temple, out through the Temple Mount, through the east gate of the city of Jerusalem, out to the Mount of Olives. That's in Ezekiel 9 through 11. He talks about it coming back later in Ezekiel 9 through 11. He talks about it coming back later in Ezekiel in about chapter 40. It comes back again and the one you just pointed out was Jesus comes in the triumphal entry Luke 21, 37. He would stay outside at night the last week of his life, physically and literally in the Mount of Olives and go in through that same east gate to the temple on a daily basis in the triumphal entry. All these things happen literally and he left physically from the Mount of Olives and the angels say he's going to come back.
Speaker 1:In the same way, if we are to say, as the amillennialist does, that Zechariah 14.4 is figurative and not physical and literal, then we have a hermeneutical problem that all the other instances in the story must be passed away with figurative language too. We can't do that. Are we to say that the cloud really didn't prevent Pharaoh's army from attacking Israel? Are we to say that in Moses' day and in Solomon's day the priest really didn't physically be removed from the temple? I hope that we wouldn't just wipe away literal history like that. And because those were literal and physical, then Zechariah 14.4 has to be literal and physical. It's just too many places where it talks about it in plain language. Ezekiel 43.1-7 talks about the return of the glory, and Ezekiel 43.7 says this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, which is exactly parallel to Zechariah 14.4. So we have this grand story that all happened physically and this is just a culmination of it. Wouldn't you agree, steve?
Speaker 2:I absolutely agree and I'm always amazed by that story that you tell there of God's glory and his dwelling among the people of Israel.
Speaker 2:In the next few verses here we're going to see some more information of him dwelling there in Jerusalem as well, and we'll talk about that whenever we get there. I've looked at this several times as we've gone through this study, glenn, and even before this study as well, and I just don't see how these things can be spiritualized and stay congruent with the rest of Scripture, of the overarching narrative and storyline of what God has been telling through his prophets, and also with Jesus coming and dying for us a death, burial and resurrection and stay with a spiritualization of it. Now, zechariah is not the only place in the prophets that it talks about a restored kingdom and a restored Jerusalem and an actual dwelling place. Malachi mentions it, haggai mentions it and there's a couple of the other minor prophets that mention it as well. In fact, I think all of the prophets mention it. It's not just here in Zechariah, it's in the other prophets as well, about a restored kingdom that is going to come again.
Speaker 1:So to summarize this, what we just read in this passage in Zechariah 14, there's nations that are going to come against the city of Jerusalem. For a period of time, jerusalem will look as if it's totally lost. The Lord Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in a dramatic fashion. His feet will sit down on the mountain. The mountain is going to split In that day. His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives and there's no question about which Jerusalem or which Mount of Olives, because Zechariah 14.4 says which is in front of Jerusalem, on the east, it's that one. The mountain's going to split, half moving to the north, half to the south. A new valley verse 5, will be created, making way of escape for the remainder of the Jewish people. When this will occur will most likely occur at the end of the Great Tribulation period, when Jesus returns to establish his kingdom.
Speaker 1:The end of verse 5,. Jesus will bring with him quote all the holy ones with him. This could be angels, or it could be souls of the saints. That would be right in line with 1 Thessalonians 3.13, which speaks of, quote, the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints. Things would appear to line up quite well and that just seems to be what it's plainly saying. The plain reading of the text, without trying to morph it into some sort of symbolic thing, is just that it's the plain meaning of the text. Moving on, verse 6 says there will be no light and the end of verse 7 says at evening time there will be light. It says in verse 7, there's this unique day that God makes the light like no other day, which is neither day nor night. So, steve, what do you think of when you say that? He doesn't go into too much detail about explaining it, but I think we could get a pretty good guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the light, I think that's going to be. There is going to be his glory, or the Shekinah glory sometimes it's referred to, and it was such that was seen on the Mount of Transfiguration. I think it was also the light that blinded Paul whenever Jesus came to him and said why are you persecuting me? I think it also in the very beginning in Genesis, when it talks about the light being there before the night and the day, before the sun and the moons were created. That's one of the things that the skeptics like to put out. They say how can there be light before there was moon and the sun created? Well, I think that possibly and we talked about it when we went through Genesis that the light that was provided at that time was God and God's glory. So I think this is kind of a reference to the same thing. It's a unique day, neither day nor night, but it will come about at the evening time that there will be light night but it will come about at the evening time that there will be light.
Speaker 1:What did we see on the Mount of Transfiguration? The Lord Jesus shone like the sun. We have him now in his glory. So when he comes back he's not going to appear just like he did when he was here on earth, because now he's glorified, he's shining. That is the sense here that I get.
Speaker 1:Several places in the Bible speak of the sun being darkened before the great day of the Lord, including passages such as Joel 2 and Matthew 24, both talk about the sun being darkened. So if the Lord is indeed here in his glory, then he would provide light. Then in verse 8, the geography will be remade. In those days God will cause water to flow out in abundance. Now it would be really easy. When it says here in verse 8 about the water coming out. It even uses the term living waters. And of course our minds immediately go to Jesus speaking to the woman at the well in the Gospel of John, where he tells her I can give you fountains of living water flowing up to eternal life. So that language is there. That's where my mind goes to immediately. But if we reason through this, we're going to see that it's not quite that easy, simply because there's so many places that actually talk about the land being remade, the land of Israel being remade and having an abundance of physical water. Ezekiel 47 speaks of water flowing from the temple to the east, not in some figurative sense, but to the east. Joel 3.18 speaks of water flowing from the temple. Revelation 22.1 speaks of a river of water of life flowing from the throne of the Lamb, who is Jesus, and the throne, of course, would be in the temple in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1:Isaiah 35, verses 1 and verses 6 and 7 say the desert shall blossom like a rose. Water will burst forth in the wilderness. The thirsty land shall have springs of water. Steve, I think it's fairly straightforward to say that if there really was a plentiful supply of fresh water, what's going to happen? The desert's going to bloom like a rose.
Speaker 1:What keeps land desert is the lack of water, and if there's lots of water, then the geography is going to be remade. I think it's exactly what it says is the Lord Jesus is going to come back. The mountain will split, he'll save his people, the Jewish people of Israel, and the geography will be remade. There will be more flat ground around there. There will be an abundance of water and the geography will be remade. There will be more flat ground around there, there will be an abundance of water, which will cause all kinds of plant growth and food to be able to be grown. So I see this as a great time, where Jesus is ruling from his throne in Jerusalem and will have a very green area there now, instead of rocks and desert. What would be your thoughts?
Speaker 2:I want to add to what you said in Revelation 22.
Speaker 2:What you noted was verse one, the very next verse.
Speaker 2:It says in the middle of its street. This is where the river is flowing out from the throne.
Speaker 2:It says on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of life, bearing 12 kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. It adds to this picture of what Judas painted, that from the living waters that come out, the desert's going to flourish once again and the waters are going to feed the other nations and things are going to be restored as well. I just want to point out once again that what we're reading here in Zechariah is not in and of itself. It's in combination with other pieces of scripture that talk about what is going to happen in the future, when Jesus is second coming. If it was just by itself, then, yes, maybe you could do certain things and spiritualize it, but when you put it in combination with other things that talk about physical things that are going to take place, I just don't think you could do that.
Speaker 1:We'll probably pull it to the curb here right now because of time, but tune in next time because there's still some very, very profound spiritual truths that we can get out of the last part of Zechariah 14. So please come back next time as we continue to reason through the Bible. Thank you so much for watching and listening.
Speaker 2:May God bless you.
