Reasoning Through the Bible
Taking a cue from Paul, Reasoning Through the Bible is an expository style walk through the Scriptures that tells you what the Bible says. Reviewing both Old and New Testament books, as well as topical subjects, the hosts methodically show how Scripture is one cohesive story. Critical Thinking with a little bit of theology and apologetics and you have what this podcast is about. Just like Paul on Mars Hill, Christianity today must address woke, deconstruction, and progressive Christianity, all topics that are addressed if we go purposefully through the Bible. Join Glenn and Steve weekly on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday as they reason with you through the Bible.
Reasoning Through the Bible
S9 || The Power of Small Beginnings || Zechariah 4:8 - 5:4 || Session 9 || Verse by Verse Bible Study
Can small beginnings lead to monumental outcomes in your spiritual journey? Join us as we explore the profound lessons from the book of Zechariah, specifically focusing on Zechariah 4:8-10. We delve into the intriguing prophecy that foretold Zerubbabel's completion of the temple, emphasizing the validation of true prophetic voices in biblical times. This episode challenges the common perception of success, reminding us not to undervalue the humble starts in our lives and ministries, while also celebrating the impactful contributions of those working diligently behind the scenes. By engaging with these rich biblical texts, we affirm the clarity and accessibility of Scripture, encouraging listeners to approach even the most complex passages with an open and inquisitive heart. Tune in for a meaningful conversation that promises to deepen your understanding and appreciation of the timeless truths embedded in these sacred stories.
How do we know that when someone stands up and speaks for God, that it's the truth? Well, today we're going to see an example of that in the book of Zechariah. Hi, my name's Glenn and I'm here with Steve. We are Reasoning Through the Bible. We do, verse by verse, phrase by phrase, explanations of the Word of God. We are in this Old Testament book of Zechariah where there's some very, very rich ground We'll go ahead and dive in. If you have your copy of the Word of God, open it to Zechariah, chapter 4. Steve, if you could read verses 8, 9, and 10.
Speaker 2:Also, the word of the Lord came to me saying the hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you, for who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. These are the eyes of the Lord which range to and fro throughout the earth.
Speaker 1:With this, zerubbabel has started rebuilding the temple. This prophecy says he will finish it. The Old Testament prophets always had predictions within their lifetimes that could be verified. Remember, zechariah was coming up saying thus, says the Lord. And well, how do we know it's going to be true? Many of these things were for when the Messiah would come and they were future events to that day. How was he to know whether these things were to be true or not? Well, here, remember where the Jewish people were. They were very discouraged. They had started rebuilding the temple, but that construction had completely stalled.
Speaker 1:So now Zechariah comes in and if you were with us last time, there's going to be a lamp burning in the temple. Again here he says Zerubbabel, you've started building this temple. Your hands are going to see the completion of it. Your hands are going to see the capstone put on it. So that's how it says again at the end of verse 9, this is how you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you, steve. Can we have confidence that these prophets were really speaking for God?
Speaker 2:We can, and Zechariah is actually saying that here, through this vision, that in your lifetime, zerubbabel, here, you're going to be the one, the leader, that's going to complete the rebuilding of this temple, then you'll know that I am the one that's been sent. Then you'll know that I am the prophet that comes into the rest of the visions and everything else that is going to be said. The qualification for a prophet that's lined out in Deuteronomy was whether or not the things that he said came about. This is going to be a validation for Zechariah that he has been sent by God to speak the things of God through these visions that he's getting.
Speaker 1:At the time Zechariah made this prophecy, the temple construction project was in ruins and had stalled and was not progressing. When Zechariah stands up and says thus, saith the Lord of hosts, zerubbabel, you started it, you're going to finish it. Therefore, the people around him knew four years later when it was completed hey, zechariah is a true prophet. All the prophets in the Bible always had things immediate to their day that came true. That's how we know they were true prophets. Moving on then in the next verse, verse 10, who has despised the day of small things? The second temple would not be as grand and as glorious as the first temple that Solomon built after King David. As the first temple that Solomon built after King David, king David had acquired and gathered, and Solomon continued to acquire, a vast amount of wealth. The first temple was very grand and glorious and the second temple was not going to be as good. It would be a nice temple, just not as grand as Solomon's.
Speaker 1:So who has despised the day of small things? God says here that even though it's a smaller temple, you shouldn't despise it. I think we can apply that to our day today, isn't it true, steve? Can we be satisfied doing small things for the Lord. You know, we look around us and there's other people. Boy, they're doing grand and glorious ministries for the Lord and look how many people they have following them. Look at all the wonderful work that other person's doing. And all I have is this small area of ministry. Can we be satisfied with a small area, a small job that God possibly had given me?
Speaker 2:We absolutely can, because it's all the small jobs, small areas that lead to to build up in many times the foundation for the big, larger areas. One of the benefits of a gathering of church people congregation is what we refer to as small groups. In our church they're called life groups, called life groups. This is an area where you have a director and a teacher and you have other people that help coordinate the class. They have meetings throughout the week, they have things that go on and through these small groups the people are nurtured, the people are discipled and the groups are anywhere from 10 to 20 people, something like that. But that's a small ministry and you have all those throughout the church. That's really. The people that are in those small groups are grown and discipled. That's where the benefit is in the larger churches, really, through the small groups.
Speaker 1:We live in a day when many ministry leaders and many pastors, church leaders, when you use the phrase grow the ministry or grow the church, they immediately think of more people. Is that the only way to grow a ministry is more people? Is it even what we should consider to be the primary way? I think more people is good, is it not?
Speaker 2:More people is good. Lynn, you and I both have taught classes before where there's really sometimes only one or two people that show up. But if you're called to teach and you have volunteered to the church, I want to serve wherever you want me to serve, and that's been the case with me on a couple of occasions. We have this class that needs a teacher or it needs a director. Will you serve there? Yes, I will. Even though only one or two showed up, the class eventually grew and it got to a point where there were more people that were there. So just like it here. For who has despised the day of small things? Don't get discouraged if the things that you're doing seem small, but take encouragement from them that the Lord is with you, he's in your midst, just like he was explained here to Zerubbabel. You're doing it for the glory of God, you're not doing it for yourself.
Speaker 1:I remember hearing on our local Christian radio station there was a pastor that had been on that station for quite a while. I used to enjoy listening to him. He was a very good Bible teacher and he said one time that he had a small church. And I was surprised, because somebody that good, you'd think well they must have had a really large church.
Speaker 1:Well, he said he didn't really think it was his job to just increase the numbers of people. He thought it was his job to increase the spiritual maturity of the people that were already there. He said I'm very happy with a smaller number of people because look at how they're growing spiritually. He pointed to his congregation, even though it was a small congregation, and said look how much they're maturing. That's how he viewed his job as a pastor and always respected him for that. Do we ever in ministry look at someone else and say, wow, they've got a bigger ministry, they're getting more recognition and all I've got is this small area, area, and I'm not seeing it grow? Maybe I should stop doing what I'm doing and go do something bigger.
Speaker 2:And I think this would be a good time to give a shout out to video and audio editor Matt and his co-partner, john. They are working behind the scenes and the people that are listening to this the clarity that they hear it is because of Matt and John. Also the people that are listening to this. The clarity that they hear it is because of Matt and John. Also the people that are watching this. The graphics that come up and the things that are happening that make it more pleasurable and interesting to see is being done by Matt and John. Now they're behind the scenes. They have a ministry that they edit Christian videos for other people, and I even think Matt does it for his church there. They are never going to be seen in this, but yet they are there working behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:We have a person by the name of Melissa. She does the graphics on some of the stuff and she does the thumbnails for our videos that are out on YouTube. We have another person, houston, for our videos that are out on YouTube. We have another person, houston, he's doing the shorts that go out on YouTube and some of all of our other social media areas, and we have somebody that I won't mention his name because I don't probably think he's wanting his name mentioned, but he has provided the short-term funding for the editing that's going on. His funding is funding this ministry Reading Through the Bible. It's is funding this ministry reading through the Bible. It's also funding Matt and his ministry for the editing. This is a picture of the body of Christ working together in different small areas and small ways to bring about the gospel that's going to go out to a multitude of people. I just think it's wonderful how the body of Christ works that way.
Speaker 1:God notices the small things. Who did Jesus notice in the temple? It was the woman who gave her last two pieces of copper coins. It was the last two little cents. He noticed her. He noticed because she gave all that she had. Our Lord notices. Our Lord notices what we do, even though it's a small thing. We're taught here that people that have larger ministries aren't any more spiritual than people that have small ministries. In fact, sometimes the larger ministries bring in more temptation and more worldly sin. We should not despise small things. That it says here in Zechariah. God has placed us in a spot and he wants us doing that role and we should be pleased to do that role. Sure, it's better to see more people come to Christ, but it's more important to be faithful to the Lord. Then, in verse 10, it says these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line. Well, those of us that are not in construction, steve, what's a plumb line? A?
Speaker 2:plumb line is. In today's world they use lasers for it. But a plumb line is a way to find a straight line using gravity. You hold a string up and at the bottom of it it's got a ball with a pointer on the bottom of it. You just let gravity take it and make take it to its natural place and through that you get a straight line, a perpendicular line that you can use to mark off for different areas in the building process.
Speaker 1:Plum line is used in building construction, which the immediate context there is. They were building the temple. What he's saying here is that the building project's going to start again. They're going to be out there with their tools, their plum lines and their other construction tools, and you're going to see construction start on the temple. These seven will be glad when they see the plumb line. Now, of course, that begs the question who are the seven? Well, the seven, there's two things that were mentioned as seven. There were the seven lamps. Then there was back in chapter 3, verse 9, there's the seven eyes that were from the Messiah, that could see the immediate context. There is either one of those two, but it really doesn't matter, because the point of verse 10 is that there will be rejoicing when Zerubbabel takes up the construction tools, the plumb line which is used to build buildings. The temple will be under construction again.
Speaker 1:The series of prophecies very clear that we're bringing back construction, the construction will start again. We're going to take away the iniquity of the high priest, we're going to put a crown on his head. Construction's going to start again. These are all very clear prophecies to the people of the day, saying construction is going to start again on the temple that Zerubbabel finished just a handful of years later we have here. The eyes of the Lord are going to roam to and fro upon the earth. That's what we're told here in the Bible. How much does God see? Does he see the future? Does he really know the future with confidence? Steve, I think these passages can tell us that God's not just a good guesser, he's not just a good predictor of future events. He knows with absolute certainty. That doesn't take away any of the free will of the people that are here.
Speaker 2:He definitely knows what's going on in the future because all the things that we see in the Old Testament, these prophecies that have come true In Matthew we talked about those prophecies from the Old Testament that attest to Jesus, pointing to him as being the Messiah they came true. Any prophecy that we see of things, events that are going to happen in the future, if they happen whenever Jesus came, we can take confidence that the other things that talk about his second coming, that they're going to happen too. So, yes, he knows the future as well as the past. He knows everything that is going on and, in an encouragement that he does that, we've been talking about that. Even when this plumb line is there, whenever he starts construction, he notices that. How does it describe it? He says he takes pleasure in that.
Speaker 1:He does take pleasure in it. So we can take pleasure in knowing that God is 100% accurate predictor of future free acts of human beings, and that's not a contradiction. God is all-seeing, he's all-knowing, he knows what's going to happen, he knows what people are going to freely do in the future and that's what we see here in these prophecies. Let's go ahead and read the next section, starting in verse 11. It says this Then I said to him what are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?
Speaker 1:I answered the second time and said to him what are these two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes which empty the golden oil from themselves? He answered me saying Do you not know what these are? I said no, my Lord. Then he said these are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth. With this, in verses 11 and 12, zechariah speaks to the angel and asks the same question twice. I find this interesting. Should we keep praying to the Lord if he doesn't answer us the first time? Should we keep asking?
Speaker 2:Yes, we should. Just because we don't necessarily get an answer or what we perceive as being an answer, doesn't mean that we should stop. The things that have been mentioned before is that sometimes you might get a yes, sometimes you might get a no, sometimes you might get a maybe, or sometimes even not. Yet those are answers that come back from God. All of our prayers are answered in one of those ways I'm reminded of.
Speaker 1:Over in the New Testament, jesus told the parable in Luke, chapter 11. Remember, he told the parable of the man who had a visitor come and it was late at night. So he goes to his neighbor and he says my friend, my neighbor, can you loan me a couple of loaves of bread because I have a visitor? And the neighbor says, well, I can't now because my whole family's in bed and I don't want to get up. But in the parable Jesus says because he was persistent in asking. Therefore, the man got up and gave him what he wants. And the point of the parable was keep praying, keep asking, keep going to God and keep asking for what your needs are, because God is good. He is not slow like some people count slowness, but he is a loving father that knows all and he will give us what we need in his timing, in what's best for us. This is what we see here. He asked the question and then he asked again In verse 14, what do these two olive trees represent?
Speaker 2:The two olive trees are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord or Yahweh of the whole earth.
Speaker 1:That's all he says, which sort of leaves us in a question okay, what do these mean, the two anointed ones? He gives no other further explanations. They could be two or three different things. So he's just laying out possible options of two anointed ones. Many Bible teachers say that the two anointed ones were Zerubbabel and Joshua, the civil leader and the spiritual leader of Israel at the time.
Speaker 1:Because the context of the visions were the rebuilding of the temple and so the rebuilding of the temple, it would fit normally and naturally to say that these two leaders were the ones that were going to supply the energy, as the two olive trees supplied the oil for the lamp. Therefore, these two individuals are going to supply the energy for the rebuilding of the temple. Possibility number one is that it's a rubble in Joshua, the two civil and spiritual leaders. Then I'm also reminded of the two witnesses in Revelation, chapter 11, 3, that are witnessing to the world in the first half of the Great Tribulation. Then it also just could be two unnamed heavenly beings that stand before God, and their importance is not really critical to the vision of the text because, again, the two olive trees were supplying energy. So it just could be that there's two unnamed heavenly beings that are doing God's will, helping these things to happen, sort of like an angel or a guardian angel, so to speak. The prophecy also could have double fulfillment, in that it means both a current fulfillment in Zerubbabel and a future fulfillment also. With that, steve, he just doesn't say in the text, and we're left to some degree of speculation.
Speaker 1:Overall, the vision of the lampstand, though, is quite clear, in the sense that the olive trees and the lamps were meant to be an encouragement for the Jewish people. God's Spirit would be with them, the temple would be rebuilt, the lamp in the holy place would again be lit, and it would shine God's Word and God's spiritual illumination in the holy place. The temple was going to be finished, the lamp was going to be lit, and that meant that the sacrifices were going to start again. This would be a great, great, great encouragement to a discouraged Jewish people at this point in time. God knew that the Jews needed a word of encouragement and, as a loving father, sent these words of encouragement through Zechariah and the vision so far.
Speaker 1:If we summarize these visions up to this point in Zechariah, there's a pattern here God's building a message through these visions the vision of the horses on patrol was the first one. That means God sees and controls what's happening on the earth. Therefore, he was seeing and controlling what happened with the Jews and Israel, the four horns and the carpenters. God is about to do something and move nations around. God sent a man with a measuring line to survey Jerusalem before he's going to build. God then sent the branch and the stone representing Jesus. Therefore, god's going to take away your iniquity that's been hanging over you these 70 years. The lampstand and the olive trees represent God sending his spirit to enlighten and empower the rebuilding of the temple. Steve, there's no mystery here, the grand scheme of what's going on here in the main message of the book of Zechariah Sure. There's a few isolated spots where we're okay. We're wondering exactly how this little bit fits in, but the thrust of it so far has been quite clear in what it means, wouldn't you?
Speaker 2:agree. I do agree, and I think that's quite often is the way that Scripture is. If you just read and keep on reading, Scripture will interpret itself. Number one many times when I say interpret, it actually just explains what is there. And, yeah, you get into these areas that we just talked about, the two anointed ones standing there a little bit unclear, but those are the minor areas. For the most part it's plain. You read it as the plain language. That's there. It's very understandable. I think people have been turned off from actually reading many of these minor prophets because they've been told that there's too many mysterious things that are there. Well, if you spiritualize a lot, yes, it can become confusing, but if you just read it by the plain meaning of the words, then really it's not that confusing.
Speaker 1:That brings us to the end of Zechariah 4, and we'll have time to start chapter 5, which the next vision is the vision of a flying scroll. So let's read the first four verses of Zechariah, chapter 5, to say this. So let's read the first four verses of Zechariah, chapter 5, to say this said to me, this is the curse that is going forth over the face of the whole land. Surely, everyone who steals will be purged away according to the writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according to the writing on the other side. I will make it go forth, declares the Lord of hosts, and it will enter the house of the thief and my house of. The scroll is quite clear.
Speaker 1:Scrolls were reserved for very important things in those days, such as legal documents and religious documents. That's what was the only thing in Zechariah's day that were on scrolls. A scroll going out over the whole land would be a law or a divine command, a word of God that is given to the whole land. That it was flying means that it went over the whole land rather quickly. God had already given vision of a scroll to Ezekiel and that passage also made it clear that it was the Word of God that's in Ezekiel 2, verse 9 and following, very clear. He's sending out a scroll. It's going to be flying over the whole land, it's going to go quickly and it's big.
Speaker 1:This scroll was 20 cubits by 10. A cubit is generally the distance between a man's elbow and the tip of his finger, so you can tell it's rather large. It was written on both sides, so there would be a lot of laws or commands going out over the whole land. This also reminded, I'm sure, the hearers of the tablets from back in Moses' day that were written on both sides on Exodus 32.15,. A scroll of that size, written on both sides, would have a lot of divine commands, a lot of laws, and it would be a clear declaration that there's a new sheriff in town, a clearer declaration that there's a new sheriff in town. God's going to come in, he's going to pass some new decrees, or at least he's going to send his word out through the whole land. It's going to go quickly and it's going to be very clear, wouldn't you agree, steve?
Speaker 2:I do agree with everything that you're saying there, glenn. And it says there, in verse 3, this is the curse that is going forth and it gives two things. It says everyone who steals and everyone who swears will be purged from the land. So I think that this harkens back to the law that you mentioned, the tablets that had the 10 commandments, all the other laws we just got through, going through Galatians. And in Galatians at one point Paul refers to the law as being a curse because it exposes our sin and the curse of having to keep that law completely. If you break one law, you break them all. It's kind of referring to this law of the commandments that have been given to the people from God that are going out across all of the land. And then it's also referred to in Ephesians 4, 28, 29, talking about this stealing and the swearing there as well. So I think, again, this is an area that's clear. It would have been clear to the people of that time as to what it's referring to.
Speaker 1:When our translation here says swearing, it's not talking about cursing, it's talking about swearing falsely or lying. Many of the other translations bring that out. The two sins that are mentioned here are lying and stealing. Interestingly, both those made the top 10 list made the 10 commandments Even more interesting. Those were the two commands that remember the tablets were written on both sides and there was two of them. Therefore the two commands. There were commands three and eight, which would have been in the middle of both of those two tablets. There's some symbolism there in the sense that he chose lying and stealing, in the sense that these would be on both of the original tablets that he's saying, but nevertheless he picked two of these sins. So those are the main things that we're going to be focused with here, stephen. Then the last half of verse four. It tells us what this law is going to do as it goes out over the land. How does it describe the effect of this law?
Speaker 2:It says that it will spend the night within that house and that it will consume it with its timber and stones. Through the actions of it or the adherence to it, it's going to consume this house completely.
Speaker 1:Now, this assumes that there were people in the land that were lying and stealing, or else they wouldn't have been consumed, so therefore there was indeed people out there that were doing these sins. Do people ever get away with sin?
Speaker 2:People do not get away with sin. We've had a couple examples already in these first few chapters of God who goes to and forth about the earth through the horsemen and the myrtle trees, to the seven eyes that were there in the temple area, the seven eyes that were there in the temple area. Again, those are things to tell us that God is omniscient and that he knows everything that is going on.
Speaker 1:Do we ever justify sin to ourselves, telling ourselves, well, this is just a little sin, it's just a little white lie. Yeah, I lied, but it was a little white lie or it was just a small theft I mean, I only took five minutes of my boss's time that I got paid for it or it was just a little white lie. Do we ever justify sin to ourselves like that?
Speaker 2:We justify sin to ourselves all the time, mostly every day. Yeah, through different ways, and I think again, that's the human nature. We're tied and connected to this world. 1 John says the world is the enemy of God. Here we are, our five senses are here. We operate in the world of not only fellow Christians but also fellow people that are not believers in God. So there's always these temptations for us to go the way of the world. It's the fleshly things that we have to fight against, because that's fighting against our spirit.
Speaker 1:No reason here to have any doubt as to what this means. He's telling us exactly what this vision of the flying scroll means. He has a large scroll, which means there's a lot of words on it, and it's going to be dealing with sin, and it's going to go out over the whole land. Last half of the verse there says it goes over the whole land, which means it's going out over everybody. The judgment is therefore going to be for everyone as the scroll flies over the entire earth. That's what it's saying here is that God's going to send out something. He's going to deal with sin, as we've said we were going to do. As we go through this, we have to decide is this literal or figurative? When is it supposed to happen? Is it already fulfilled or not? This is a perfect example, steve, of this idea of do we interpret things literally or figuratively? Because the vision is very clear as to what it means. God is going to literally cause his law to go out over the whole land. That is going to literally happen. God will literally cause his law to punish liars and thieves. That's exactly what he's saying. It's going to literally do that. God will probably not fly a paper scroll, nor consume the timber and stones in the houses, although he could. This could be at a time when he's actually going to actually cause physical destruction to people's homes that were involved in sin, but nevertheless probably not going to literally fly a paper scroll around the whole earth. But he is going to send his law literally around the earth and he's going to literally punish sin and he's going to consume the house, which means the family of these people that were in these sins. It is not the case here that these symbols are here just for no reason at all and they mean nothing. It's symbolic, but it's symbolic of something real. It's symbolic of something that's actually going to happen. It's not a real secret as to what it is. We don't have to guess as to what this is.
Speaker 1:The sense of verse 4 is that the judgment of sin is going to be swift, complete and it's going to be across everyone to remove all sin from the entire land.
Speaker 1:Such a swift and thorough judgment has not happened at any point in church history, nor is it happening to everyone in the church today.
Speaker 1:We can't spiritualize this and say well, this was something that happens at salvation in the church age, in the heart of a Christian or in the church as a whole, simply because, if we admit it to ourselves, we still have lying and stealing.
Speaker 1:That's still being tempted in my heart and I do still steal five minutes of my boss's time at work and things like this. He says the judgment's going to go out to the entire world and take care of all of it. That has not happened at any point in the past, nor is it happening today in the church age. Therefore, this is quite clearly saying a very literal thing that the law of the Lord is going to go out, it's going to take away all sin, and it's still future. Simply because it hasn't happened yet, we can't fudge it a little and say, well, it's kind of sort of like the Christian life in the church, simply because God has not removed all lying and stealing from the church. There's pastors that fall almost a monthly basis in the news these days because they're still there. Therefore, this judgment is going to be fulfilled in the millennium when Jesus reigns from Jerusalem. I think that's quite clear from this passage.
Speaker 2:It is also not true that it has to be one or the other, that you have to read everything literally or spiritualize everything, and that's a tactic that some use to try and detract us from just reading the plain language. We just read that You've just explained it that this is a case where you have both. You have symbology that's used of something that is literally or truly going to happen in the future. It's really not that complicated.
Speaker 1:So that's enough for today. We're going to come back next time, because we're going to see a woman in a basket even more fantastic visions. We trust that you'll be back here for that, because it'll have even more wonderful lessons that we can use in our lives today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for watching and listening. May God bless you.
